another cannabis thread

[malfunction]

Al:

IMO It's a political issue - not a moral issue. No politician wants to be seen to be approving of any drugs in any situation. The government could never ever get away with legalising something just for the tax benefit either (though they obviously would never say so even if that was a major motivation). It just happens to be a side benefit of legalisation. I truly believe that decriminalisation is on it's way - one day! I believe that we're better off with it out in the open and controlled.

IIRC it's local laws that make it illegal to drink in certain places (as opposed to selling or making alcohol which is obviously strictly licensed). Also (again IIRC) it's not illegal to be drunk - just illegal to sell someone a drink when they're already drunk... And no-one's suggesting that it should be legal to take drugs and drive are they? Or anything else where there are already sensible laws in place for alcohol such as selling drugs to someone underage?

And I don't believe that alcohol and cigs are only legal for tax reasons - though that would certainly be an incentive (and the financial picture isn't that simple either - what about the trade - peoples jobs - and exports - such as whiskey?). It's an accepted social norm - even someone who's 'against alcohol' knows they could not pass such a law and get away with it in a society like ours. My point is that the only reason that cannabis is seen as worse than alcohol / tobacco is for political reasons. Yes doubts remain over the damage that cannabis can or cannot do but you have to also realise that there are also political motivations behind these reports / studies (and the attention they get in the media)... Can you really argue that alcohol or tobacco are risk free? That they carry less risks than cannabis?

I'm not saying cannabis is good for you (though it obviously may provide relief for certain conditions) nor that everyone (or anyone) should use it. Just that I don't see it as a crime to smoke cannabis (should it be made illegal to drink, to eat fatty foods, to act in any way which could shorten your own lifespan?) or to own it for your own personal use... I'm not 100% on legalisation - of the production and sale of cannabis - but it is almost certainly a low-risk drug and no worse than alcohol or tobacco... Indeed I would argue that it has less adverse social effects than alcohol and believe that - if smoked in pure form - you're actually at less risk than you would be from tobacco - though I admit that I don't exactly have all the facts on that one!

[Allen]

Double post. Weird, didn't think that could happen within a space of 30 secs...

[Allen]

But surely if cannabis was legalised it would be sold over the counter and that's where they would get their tax... If people wanna grow tobacco at home (not sure if conditions are right to do this) or ferment their own wine/beer the government can't tax it, so the same goes for this.

Millions of people grow cannabis?? So, that must be a pretty high percentage of people then considering our population, and I know a hell of a lot of people around my area who smoke and I know not one grower... weird that.

You know 10,000 people in Bristol grow cannabis? Must be a very smokey place to live... you'd probably get high walking down the High Street! I'm sure the police/officials would know if there was a problem that big in one area.

[malfunction]

because there is no easy way to tax it, is there? its hard to grow tobacco, there is no black market for seeds that i'm aware of, and its hard to grow anyway. cannabis seeds are legal until germinated. how are you gonna keep track of every home-grower in the country? i mean, millions of people grow in this country at the moment (i known in Bristol alone, 10,000 people grow hydroponically, as well as soil-growers). the police don't know about these grows, so how are they gonna tax em when they are legal!? people ain't gonna come forward and pay for the 'priviledge' of something they were doing illegally and not funding the Gov't.

Punky - also - I don't believe that these people would go away overnight but I reckon many of them would convert over to legal production (after all it would allow them to produce on a much larger scale) and that eventually most (if not all) illegal production would be stamped out. Also - the duty is on the consumer... Yes, as a legit business they'd have to pay tax on profits, NI for employees and all the other costs associated with a normal business but AFAIK all the duty is levied on the consumers of alcohol and tobacco.

[Punky]

the sale of tobacco seeds is very strictly controlled, with potential growers needing to aquire a license etc.. i was using bristol as an example, thats taken from a hydroponics shop owner's guess there or summat. i'd say Brum has the most people smokin weed in the country tho, london is focused on, but us Brummies get the best stuff
and as for not knowing a grower - if i was a grower, i'd never ever tell anyone, especially you Al! if i did, i'd be just sitting around and waitin for the inevitable knock from the piggies. never heard of the 2x4 rule?
i'd much rather keep growing illegally (wish i could grow now! damn parents!) than having to pay tax on it.
peace

[Allen]

VAT is only charged to the customer at the end of the day because even though companies also pay VAT, they also claim it back from the government.

Ok, well you've made some good valid points there malfunction, and I do agree with you that there's no proof that cannabis is worse than alcohol and/or cigarettes. But at the end of the day, drugs are still illegal and IMO they should stay illegal but that's through my own personal views/experience and nothing to do with anyone else.

If it wasn't for addictions I would also say that cigarettes should also be made illegal, but it would definately push it underground as so many people hevily rely on them.

[Auran]

Al - I'll admit I was being a bit general about the morality / religion statement. We could get into a discussion about the philosophy of morality and ethics. For example if you are religious but in your country worshiping your religion is illegal, would it be immoral to practise your own beliefs....?

Personally I look at absolute black and whites as morality, and grey areas as ethics. Breaking the law can be either, e.g. moral for murder or ethical for walking down the street naked.

As I stated earlier there is no point in discussing legalisation logically because governments do not act on the basis of logic. Expediency is the overiding factor when policy decisions are made.

My belief is that taking drugs is not bad, but doing so in situations where you may harm / affect others basic rights is. I reserve the right to do what want to my own body, accepting the long term consequences.

[Allen]

if i was a grower, i'd never ever tell anyone, especially you Al! if i did, i'd be just sitting around and waitin for the inevitable knock from the piggies. never heard of the 2x4 rule?

Come on, I'm trying to be civil about this now, stop getting personal. You can't put me down for being legal just because you obviously are not.

Anyway, I'm proud that I've grassed up a false benefit claimer, 2 drink drivers and someone who carried a gun.

[malfunction]

I sincerely hope the person that was carrying a gun - or one of their associates - doesn't know it was you... It may have been morally right Al but IMO it was bloody stupid none the less.

Off-topic but I reckon we could use some kind of left wing / right wing / touchy subject score card around here - i.e.

For / against:

Right to abortion
Decriminalisation of drugs
Legalisation of drugs
Religion
Intel
AMD

It would avoid some of the common arguments anyway! Though I'm sure we'd still find something to rant about!

[Allen]

Right to abortion - against (unless under 18)
Decriminalisation of drugs - against
Legalisation of drugs - against
Religion - against
Intel - against
AMD - for

Come on, flame me some more!

I sincerely hope the person that was carrying a gun - or one of their associates - doesn't know it was you... It may have been morally right Al but IMO it was bloody stupid none the less.

Maybe it was but he'll never know it was me.

[Auran]

Right to abortion - For
Decriminalisation - For
Legalisation - For
Religion - Me = Against, Others = For (It's a crutch for the weak but if they need it who am I to tell them what to do with their lives!!)
Intel - Ambivalent
AMD - Not a clue

[malfunction]

Well I take issue with the abortion thing... TBH I don't think abortion is anything other than murder - but that the choice should still exist because there will always be circumstances where it can be justified (should a woman have to give birth to a child that was the result of rape?). Comes down to social issues really - like the drugs thing does IMO - basically my stance is that abortion should be allowed but that anyone considering abortion should be asked to consider the alternatives (keeping the child or giving the child up for adoption). So education instead of 'prohibition'... Though obviously this may already be in place (but maybe not in all cases).

[Punky]

Right to abortion - against (unless under 18)
Decriminalisation of drugs - against
Legalisation of drugs - against
Religion - against
Intel - against
AMD - for

Come on, flame me some more!

i'd go to prison before i grassed. i've had to lie and bullrubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish my way out of sooo many situations to avoid getting someone in trouble. grasses are the people who get their legs repeatedly broken in life, and rightly so.

abortion - its the woman's body, its up to her if she wants an abortion or not. the foetus doesn't know any better, its just a little blob inside her. it doesn't know whats going on. and legalising it is a lot better than forcing women to go underground and do very dangerous DIY abortions with knitting needles and the like

legalisation and decriminalisation of drugs - if all drugs were legalised and a safe supply was ensured, there would be f*ckloads less crime than now, people would know what's in the pills they are taking, instead of havin to risk it, not knowing exactly whats in them. then again, the government grown weed in america given to medical patients is crap apparently, so if i could buy it over the counter here, it'd have to be as good as the very good stuff i get at the mo.

i do agree on the religion tho, its just legalised mind control.

peace.

[kushtibari]

i'd go to prison before i grassed. i've had to lie and bullrubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish my way out of sooo many situations to avoid getting someone in trouble. grasses are the people who get their legs repeatedly broken in life, and rightly so.
peace.

sorry but thats way too narrow minded for me. 'honour amongst thieves ' is a complete pile of crap. To use Al's example - what if the guy with the gun had shot someone instead of being caught? What if the drunk driver ran over a kid next time he drove? As far as I'm concerned I think Al did the right thing and I applaud him for doing something about it.

[floppybootstomp]

man, I need a toke

[Punky]

what if you did a crime, would you like to be grassed on?

floppyboot - get round here in the next 10 mins and i'll help u out