Dispatches : The Hidden World of Lap Dancing

[fuddam]

Yes, it does boil down to individual freedom I think. Freedom is not without consequences however <snip> I certainly wouldn't lay down the law and that would go just the same for any children I may have in future.

So you're not going to discipline your children, eh? You're going to explain to them the logic of critical thinking, and then leave them to do whatever they choose? It is YOUR job, as parent, to mould them to be honest, kind, compassionate, generous, considerate. To condemn their behaviour when they lie/steal/destroy, and punish them accordingly.

There are consequences in law for people doing whatever they please. And no, am not talking simply about criminal actions.

Firstly, you make an assumption that it leads to 'seeing people as a means to an end' which I don't accept is always the case (or even often, whenever I have been to a lapdancing club half the fun is talking to them and kidding yourself you are in with a chance)

So you go there in order to chat to dancers, eh? That is your main motivation? Not impossible, but how extraordinary. Q: what does your GF think of you going to these clubs? Seriously. Not mocking you.

and secondly what makes you think that this isn't exactly how society works anyway? you don't build relationships with everybody for the sheer fun of it, some relationships you cultivate because it gives you some sort of advantage (for example, you might get friendly with your boss for an easier life, or you might be super friendly to the salesperson in Dixons because you want a good discount and free delivery) and in my eyes is exactly the same thing and totally normal.

'Normal' does not equate to 'good'. You seem to think it does. Most people would probably steal / cheat on their taxes if there was no chance of them being caught. Does that mean it would be good?

Even if there are examples of lapdancing clubs breaking up realtionships (I am sure there are some) I don't get what the big deal is. Some people break up because of world of warcraft addiction, should we ban that as well?

Life revolves around relationship. Society is about relationship. Community is about relationship. Encouraging practices that negate good relationship does not make much sense to me.

Saying there is no middle ground does not make it the case, my answer would be that there is probably no difference in behaviour. I certainly don't feel my behaviour has been affected and I can't say I know of anybodies who has.

You're not really in a position to judge that. Ask your friends / neighbours / family whether they condone you going or think it a bad idea. It's like someone saying he/she is quite humble - not for that person to say so. What we focus on in our hearts, what we dwell on, what we practice, is what we become.

Sounds a lot like you want to ban thought crime to me there. Fact is, so what if somebody wants to fantasise?

missed my point.

I think that suppressing your instinctual sexual urges will only lead to bad places, you seem to think the opposite.

Not at all. Sexual urges are good, IN THE RIGHT PLACE.
Eg. would you condone the sexual urges in paedophiles/necrophiliacs/rapists/beastiality/incest etc? I think not.

I just don't understand this object argument, we are all objects, and object is a thing. How is any different to modelling? would you ban modelling as well? Its selling yourself as an object you know.

Objectification of anyone is not to be encouraged, but there's only so much one can do. Modeling clothes for example does not generally equate to porn. Society generally seems to draw the line in certain circumstances, which is why don't we have porn being used to sell washing powder, and why there is a watershed in TV broadcasting etc.

I mean, for example, I might look at my mates girlfriend and think she is hot, does that make me as much of a git as if I slept with her? because I might have imagined it? please.

Looking and saying someone is hot is DIFFERENT from fantasizing about having sex with her, from dwelling on the idea.

You still have not really given me a good reason why exactly any of this is negative, even if we were all raving perverts can you explain to me why exactly that is negative because I don't understand it. I think its perfectly normal to be honest with you, I think its unnatural to repress it. The only rule as far as I am concerned is so long as no harm comes to anybody else that doesn't consent to it.

That is why I said Big Picture originally. You don't see the long term consequence.

Ok, let me put it simply: society is heading towards increasingly selfish behaviour. Selfishness arises from viewing other people as a means to an end, rather than as equal in value / needs / desires / etc as oneself.

Objectification Theory

To say we are all objects is like saying we are composed of atoms. It does not mean anything in itself. Do you treat your parents as objects to satisfy your ends? I trust not. I assume you honor them, respect them, would not sit at the breakfast table watching porn on your laptop alongside them.

You know why so many young girls / women are in such a mess over self-image? Because they break themselves down into parts, rather than looking at the whole. All these magazines / programmes that encourage women to be thinner /sexier/bigger breasted/airbrushed perfection are doing exactly that: treating the women as objects, not as complex beings with feelings, who should be built up rather than encouraged to ever-increasing dissatisfaction with self. These magazines do so, in order to bring the consumer back to buy more - like a pusher getting people hooked.

Just no, if anything the fact that I have no children makes me more objective about the subject matter than you because you have an emotional bias.

Now THAT is a sad statement. You sound exactly like those social workers who somehow know what's best for children without having had any of their own, or marriage counsellors who have never been married, or bible-bashers who have never studied the bible. Doesn't compute.

[G4Z]

So you're not going to discipline your children, eh? You're going to explain to them the logic of critical thinking, and then leave them to do whatever they choose? It is YOUR job, as parent, to mould them to be honest, kind, compassionate, generous, considerate. To condemn their behaviour when they lie/steal/destroy, and punish them accordingly.

There are consequences in law for people doing whatever they please. And no, am not talking simply about criminal actions.

I never said I wouldn't discipline my children, there would definitely be consequences for pissing me off first and foremost. Thing is, we are talking about adult offspring are we not, I mean they don't let 12 year olds lapdance in this country as far as I am aware. When it comes to somebody over 18, then as far as i am concerned you have no right to interfere with their choices, even if they are wrong. my parents objected to some of my choices, I went ahead and did them anyway.

So you go there in order to chat to dancers, eh? That is your main motivation? Not impossible, but how extraordinary. Q: what does your GF think of you going to these clubs? Seriously. Not mocking you.

No, I didn't say that I just said it was half the fun. The primary motivation to go in is to see some jiggly bits, obviously. All I am saying is that there is some level of interaction, you don't just pick one off a shelf like chicken super noddles in ASDA.

My girlfriend is well aware of the small number of times I have visited one of these places, and she does not care a jot. Why should she, do you think I would object if she were to go and see male strippers?

'Normal' does not equate to 'good'. You seem to think it does. Most people would probably steal / cheat on their taxes if there was no chance of them being caught. Does that mean it would be good?

No, normal just means accepted by the standards of the society and I think what I described is normal to most people.

Life revolves around relationship. Society is about relationship. Community is about relationship. Encouraging practices that negate good relationship does not make much sense to me.

Humm, so you are in fact for banning world of warcraft?

You're not really in a position to judge that. Ask your friends / neighbours / family whether they condone you going or think it a bad idea. It's like someone saying he/she is quite humble - not for that person to say so. What we focus on in our hearts, what we dwell on, what we practice, is what we become.

missed my point.

Your point was that you think its bad to think 'bad thoughts' (as defined by you) as it will obviously encourage bad behaviour was it not?

That to me, is thought crime.

Not at all. Sexual urges are good, IN THE RIGHT PLACE.
Eg. would you condone the sexual urges in paedophiles/necrophiliacs/rapists/beastiality/incest etc? I think not.

I already covered this in another thread more specific to paedophilia but I will reiterate it.

I would not condemn sexual urges in those types of people to be quite honest with you, and here is why.

Its either that the person is sick and they can't control it, or they are fully functioning people who have thoughts that you and I find repulsive. Now as far as I am concerned, it is ok to have any thoughts you like, however if such a person decides to act on those thoughts to sombody else's detriment then they are crossing a line and should be dealt with by either the mental health system or criminal justice system.

Objectification of anyone is not to be encouraged, but there's only so much one can do. Modeling clothes for example does not generally equate to porn. Society generally seems to draw the line in certain circumstances, which is why don't we have porn being used to sell washing powder, and why there is a watershed in TV broadcasting etc.

Well, I happen to think its just different degrees of the same thing, and I see no reason to impinge on consenting adults rights even if it is for the good of society which I am not at all convinced it is.

Looking and saying someone is hot is DIFFERENT from fantasizing about having sex with her, from dwelling on the idea.

Well, I simply don't agree with you on that. In my eyes they exactly the same, i.e nothing to be concerned or feel guilty about.

That is why I said Big Picture originally. You don't see the long term consequence.

Ok, let me put it simply: society is heading towards increasingly selfish behaviour. Selfishness arises from viewing other people as a means to an end, rather than as equal in value / needs / desires / etc as oneself.

Objectification Theory

To say we are all objects is like saying we are composed of atoms. It does not mean anything in itself. Do you treat your parents as objects to satisfy your ends? I trust not. I assume you honor them, respect them, would not sit at the breakfast table watching porn on your laptop alongside them.

You know why so many young girls / women are in such a mess over self-image? Because they break themselves down into parts, rather than looking at the whole. All these magazines / programmes that encourage women to be thinner /sexier/bigger breasted/airbrushed perfection are doing exactly that: treating the women as objects, not as complex beings with feelings, who should be built up rather than encouraged to ever-increasing dissatisfaction with self. These magazines do so, in order to bring the consumer back to buy more - like a pusher getting people hooked.

Well, I checked out the first link on google and I am not convinced of your argument for a couple of reasons.

1. Hasn't this always been the case that people are obsessed with appearance and appearance has always opened doors for people? Right back to the stone age when people were clubbing each other to mate with the female that had the best genes.

2. I don't see what it has to do with lapdancing or porn any more than anything else in our culture such as magazines and media or ballet (which was the example in the paper).

Fair enough eating disorders and stuff are not great, but then I would argue that you are picking out the wrong target here due to your own moral outrage. If you want to put a stop to that kind of thing then I say the mainstream is where the problem is. I don't see what we can do about that, I see it as an unavoidable consequence of our evolutionary past. Appearance does and probably always will matter unfortunately, much as I wish it wasn't so. I am as shallow as everybody else is, only difference is I acknowledge it.

Now THAT is a sad statement. You sound exactly like those social workers who somehow know what's best for children without having had any of their own, or marriage counsellors who have never been married, or bible-bashers who have never studied the bible. Doesn't compute.

Sad statement maybe, but no less true in my opinion.

Also, I did 'LOL' a bit at your statement that you can't bash the bible if you haven't read it. I haven't read any of the harry potter books but I still know its fiction.

[hollyjolly]

I used to be a tap dance but I kept falling in the sink.

[hollyjolly]

I missed an r of dancer, so that ruined what was a pretty poor joke anyway!