European Referendum...Vote now!

[GreenPiggy]

Euro? No thank you! Despite geographical proximity, there is a lot of difference between Britain and the rest of Europe. The ideals, the way of thinking. You can't deny the enmity between Britain and many euro nations, and one can't help but feel that the more power Brussels gets, the more they'll just want to 'assimilate' the British - make us less edgy, lose our 'rough' edges.

What??

If you take a look at Euroland though, things aren't as happy as they might make out. In Germany, recent reports show unemployment way up, France is in major debt, and their super-duper health service is starting to really show its weaknesses.

It's worth bearing in mind that although France and Germany currently have low growth, their GDP per capita is still WAY above ours and you could say our relatively high growth is simply harmonisation.

Whether you agree with the whole Iraq thing or not, the fact is it's nice (and important) to be able to have your own say on what your country does with itself, and not just tow the Euro-line.

I agree, I guess this is why Tony has his 'red line issues' on things which should be decided by the state(foreign policy, taxes etc..)

Oh, and I'm forgetting France's past (present?) obnoxious stance on British beef etc. - which is borderline illegal by its own Euro-standards.

The EU forced France to drop the ban - either that or they have been fined heavily.
If we weren't in the EU there would be absolutely nothing - diddly squat we could do about it

Economically, the Euro isn't a good idea. Socially it isn't. With regards to sovereignty, it's suicide. People talk about it like we're creating Utopia - we're not. This isn't Star Trek, things aren't going to be happliy ever after when we come together to form one, glorious whole. People just aren't like that.

why?

[Galant]

In order:

"What?"

I do believe that the general consensus within France, Germany, Spain etc, is that they don't like the British. They may like all the good things our country has going for it, but they hate the fact that it's British. We aren't popular. I've a feeling they'd love to strip us bare of our benefits and throw the rest into the Atlantic!

Whether you agree or disagree, I think it's plain that to be European, is something different to being British. I think most Europeans would agree, as would most Brits. The Euros see themselves as cultured, open minded, socially advanced, and I think see Brits as the opposite in a lot of ways.

Perhaps others could share their experiences?

"It's worth bearing in mind that although France and Germany currently have low growth, their GDP per capita is still WAY above ours and you could say our relatively high growth is simply harmonisation."

Ah but where's it all going? I seriously think that the way the Germans and French manage their money is economically stupid. You can look at their economies and say well, just give it a bit of time and you'll see it become wonderful, or, we could find ourselves 10 or 15 years later still looking. And I think that's the point, there will always be one more reason why the economy is being hled back, one more thing (or country) to blame. Could it be that their system just doesn't work?

"The EU forced France to drop the ban - either that or they have been fined heavily.
If we weren't in the EU there would be absolutely nothing - diddly squat we could do about it"

Fair enough - but that wasn't my point. I agree that there are benefits to working together with other nations. That a lot of what we've done to work with the rest of Europe has been progessive - your case in point. What I trying to show is that for all their talk about unity, France still has much against Britain, acts unreasonably, and that we should be very, VERY, careful before uniting ourselves economically and governmentally with such nations.

"why?"

Are you asking why people aren't like that?

Take a look at history, at the nature of people. Take a look at some of the hypocrisy that penetrates today's Europe. For example, the 'tolerance' I mentioned. Political Correctness is at an all-time high along with teaching that we all need to be tolerant of one another, and other viewpoints. Sounds wonderful, and we need to be, but what it really amounts to is selective tolerance. Favouring only those views that agree with one's own, or those that are open to anything. It try's to do away with disagreements by killing off disagreement; instead of learning to live with, use, and tolerate disagreement. Much of this is the Euro mindset, and I don't know that it's something we should be looking to adopt. It's not even that clever.

We don't need European pseudo-tolerance, we need real, practical tolerance. Tolerance that teaches how to live with one another, to allow for differences, and to work with them, showing actual respect for viewpoints, and not trying to create one unified viewpoint by disrespecting that which is not fashionable or seems offensive.

[GreenPiggy]

I do believe that the general consensus within France, Germany, Spain etc, is that they don't like the British. They may like all the good things our country has going for it, but they hate the fact that it's British. We aren't popular. I've a feeling they'd love to strip us bare of our benefits and throw the rest into the Atlantic!

Everyone in this country always seems to think it's always an Us v Them situation. The fact is that whenever there are issues raised, some countries are on one side and some are on another, analysis of treaties shows that Britain is very rarely isolated in its views. The press has a lot to answer for in portraying this as the case.

Ah but where's it all going? I seriously think that the way the Germans and French manage their money is economically stupid.

How is it stupid? You can't just say they mismanage their money when their public services are far better than ours.

Are you asking why people aren't like that?

Apologies, the question was more about the economics of the Euro.

[Galant]

I take my information on opinions from what I read in forums, polls, and yes, a little from the BBC, who I think do quite a good job of staying center. They've seem way left-wing at times, but on many issues seem to be fair to the opposition. I do think it is more than just media-hype.

I can say it's stupid. 'Better' services aren't the be-all and end-all of economics or government. Yes, they might have wider availability, reduced costs etc. but what they're also teaching is widespread over-reliance upon the government, and people who are happy just to suck away at other people's taxes.

I realise this is just one story, but take for example the German bloke who sued because the government would neither pay for a flight for his wife to enter the country, nor pay for his porn habit and prostitutes - because he was sexually needy without his wife.

What kind of attitude is that? I do believe that is an attitude that French and German governments help create. You don't have to be that way under their governments, but the attitude is easily fostered.

There are no end of stories of people demanding free this and free that - everyone wanting it all done for them. We don't need the government telling us how to spend our money.

Having all free healthcare etc is a nice ideal, but one needs to think wider than just those isolated terms, and look at the society being created. Pouring money into societal problems does not necessarily solve them (rarely in fact).

And that is true nationally and internationally. Which is another reason not to enter EMU, a lot of the poorer Euro nations don't need more money, they need governmental changes, or just changes in the prevailing mindset. The last thing they (or we) need is to have daddy europe (whoops, make that mummy europe - because we wouldn't want to be patriarchal) meeting all their needs and writing them a free ticket. They need friends, not loans.

Anyway I'm rambling,
G.

[DaBeeeenster]

Galantry, I would suggest that the arguments that you put forward are neither backed by serious examples, nor are they based on reality.

You seem to revel in constructing xenophobic stereotypes to hide behind.

I do believe that the general consensus within France, Germany, Spain etc, is that they don't like the British. They may like all the good things our country has going for it, but they hate the fact that it's British. We aren't popular. I've a feeling they'd love to strip us bare of our benefits and throw the rest into the Atlantic!

Whether you agree or disagree, I think it's plain that to be European, is something different to being British. I think most Europeans would agree, as would most Brits. The Euros see themselves as cultured, open minded, socially advanced, and I think see Brits as the opposite in a lot of ways.

This is a perfect example. You haven't actually backed any of that statement up; it is pure conjecture on your part, and it is scare mongering. Of course people of different nationalities are different, but that doesnt mean they "hate the fact that we are British". That is absurd. I say this coming from a member of a family with large numbers of relatives of German nationality living all over Europe. It is simply not the case.

If you are going to suggest that people of Europe "hate" the fact that we are British, back up your arguments or remove them.

You highlight your position by referencing utterly insignificant stories that are not backed by sources. Frisky Germans needing hookers? Come on! I'm sure I could find an identical story in the British press. This is nothing more than scare mongering.

There are no end of stories of people demanding free this and free that - everyone wanting it all done for them. We don't need the government telling us how to spend our money.

What? Back this up with some examples.

Having all free healthcare etc is a nice ideal, but one needs to think wider than just those isolated terms, and look at the society being created. Pouring money into societal problems does not necessarily solve them (rarely in fact).

The Germans have the finest free healthcare system in the world.

Whether you agree with the whole Iraq thing or not, the fact is it's nice (and important) to be able to have your own say on what your country does with itself, and not just tow the Euro-line.

What does this have to do with Iraq? Entering the Euro says nothing of how a country should manage its foreign policy. Again, pure scare mongering.

Economically, the Euro isn't a good idea. Socially it isn't. With regards to sovereignty, it's suicide. People talk about it like we're creating Utopia - we're not. This isn't Star Trek, things aren't going to be happliy ever after when we come together to form one, glorious whole. People just aren't like that.

Ah right, so that nation people call the United States is a Utopian disaster, isn't it?

You make a couple of decent points regarding economic policies that the Euro would predicate, but I feel that most of what you have written has come straight out of the Daily Mail. Is this the case?

[Galant]

Thanks for the suggestion. Nope, haven't read the daily mail in years.

Nice to hear of your German family, hope they're doing wonderfully, maybe they should meet my Spanish family, including my father?

I work in news-talk radio and get to hear about 8 hours of news and opinions a day. To be fair, we are a typically right-wing/conservative format, although most of the hosts give plenty of air-time to those with opposing views.

To back that up, feel free to visit my workplace There's even a picture of me in the gallery section somewhere.

I'm honestly not a xenophobe or racist. I enjoy my Spanish heritage, and travel as much as I get the chance to.

I take my view from what I hear day by day, via the main news sources I read, Guardian, Times, BBC, from the international media whose reports come via the news feeds we receive, and from the many people I talk to who share their experiences.

Would care to assert that there is no, or little, enmity between France and Britain? Or even Germany?

I don't think their countries are appauling, but I don't think they're heading anywhere that we want to go.

Last I heard it was the French who claimed the best healthcare in the world. Shortly before all that debt started to show through and the government experts admitted they can't keep it up as they have been. They were able to paper over cracks in the short-term, but that was only creating inevitable bigger cracks later on. In short, it wasn't working.

But, I'm repeating myself.

I'd like to hear the big benefits of joining Europe please (and I mean that honestly, not sarcastically)

Oh, last point, whilst we can talk about EMU and Euro-government in separate terms, most will acknowledge that monetary union is, and always has been, a pre-cursor to full, governmental unity. I'm only trying to talk in the full, wider terms, which apply.



German Man Wants State-Paid Sex

[Galant]

PS - the less than idyllic french healthcare system

[DeludedGuy]

Im not sure what would happen to the England, but I know its been a nightmare in Portugal. Over in parts of Portugal the prices of everyday things have doubled, people are sturggling to make ends meat.

[GreenPiggy]

Inflation in Portugal has been roughly 3.5% since the Euro has been introduced.
Since one of the benefits of the Euro is price transparency, it is likely prices in Britain would drop. We're not called 'Rip-off Britain' for no reason.

[DaBeeeenster]

Would care to assert that there is no, or little, enmity between France and Britain? Or even Germany?

Nope. None that I know of. I've spent a lot of time in Germany and was recently in Paris with some French friends, surrounded by French people (obviously). They dont hate the British at all. They think it's hilarious that we are so anti-Euro. They just cant understand it. "What are you scared of" is a question I have been asked more than once while in mainland Europe.

Do you think Spanish people feel the same way as Germans and the French? If not, why not?

I don't think their countries are appauling, but I don't think they're heading anywhere that we want to go.

Where ARE they heading? Can you quantify what you are saying with any sort of metric, to give us all a clue? We are just coming out of a classic bear squeeze in the financial markets. The timing of the euro probably couldn't have been worse from a bond/equity/ market perpective. Germany had serious unemployment problems before the Euro was introduced.

Last I heard it was the French who claimed the best healthcare in the world. Shortly before all that debt started to show through and the government experts admitted they can't keep it up as they have been. They were able to paper over cracks in the short-term, but that was only creating inevitable bigger cracks later on. In short, it wasn't working.

Not heard that myself. As I said, I was under the impression that Germany has the best social healthcare system in the world. In times of relative to the countrie's wealth, obviously it's nowhere near Cuba, but it's still very impressive.

I'd like to hear the big benefits of joining Europe please (and I mean that honestly, not sarcastically)

- Adding serious strength and credibility to the Euro, allowing it to seriously go up against the dollar as the hard currency of choice for everything from oil to travellers cheques.
- Removal of all FX rate issues with mainland europe.
- Immediate removal of all forms of FX beaurocracy.
- Equalisation in the eyes of large businesses in terms of investing in the UK
- Increased investment opportunites throughout europe
- Better retail price transparency

[spazman]

Yes, in the long term its the way to go!

[Clingy]

Very Pro Europe here.

Isolationism is not progress. Afterall what is the logical end. Independent Scotland, Wales. Free Conrwall? In fact Boudicea had a point, us East Anglians need independence .... Welcome the new state of Iceni!!! Actually I'm not sure that would work, we have quite a healthy economy here in Suffolk and unemployment is much higher in Norfolk. They speak strange as well up there, and I am not sure we could have a common currency, I wouldn't want to lose the Turnip!

I could go on talking about the next town or village and them at other end of the street, but I think you get the drift.

[DaBeeeenster]

Very Pro Europe here.

Isolationism is not progress. Afterall what is the logical end. Independent Scotland, Wales. Free Conrwall? In fact Boudicea had a point, us East Anglians need independence .... Welcome the new state of Iceni!!! Actually I'm not sure that would work, we have quite a healthy economy here in Suffolk and unemployment is much higher in Norfolk. They speak strange as well up there, and I am not sure we could have a common currency, I wouldn't want to lose the Turnip!

I could go on talking about the next town or village and them at other end of the street, but I think you get the drift.

Please tell me you support the town...?

[Slick]

- Adding serious strength and credibility to the Euro, allowing it to seriously go up against the dollar as the hard currency of choice for everything from oil to travellers cheques.

I dont see how thats a reason to join as if we wern't part of the Euro we wouldn't be concerened with it. It's just a reason why other countries using the euro would want us to join.

- Removal of all FX rate issues with mainland europe.
- Immediate removal of all forms of FX beaurocracy.

This is a benefit but a very small one. There is hardy any beaurocracy as it couldn't be simpler to exchange one currency for another. The argument that firms will no longer have to worry about exchange rates within Europe doesn't work as that will be offset by the unpredictable economic consequences of unfavourable interest rates, lower domestic demand etc.

- Equalisation in the eyes of large businesses in terms of investing in the UK

The manufacturing sector in the UK is basically dead. We don't have a comparitive advantage in it anymore. Our labour is expensive (due to employment laws, minimum wage etc), unproductive and unflexible so it unlikely to have any increase in investment. Also most large businesses are American so there would be no difference as we would still be using a different currency.

- Increased investment opportunites throughout europe

I'm not sure what you mean here, do you mean the chance for British firms to invest through Europe? If so that's just taking investment out of the UK which would be terrible.

- Better retail price transparency

This is more of a reason not to join! it would be great for consumers as they could easily buy lots of cheap european goods (especially since delivery prices are so low) so there would be a large drop in domestic demand for UK firms, causing unemployment to rise etc.

[DaBeeeenster]

I dont see how thats a reason to join as if we wern't part of the Euro we wouldn't be concerened with it. It's just a reason why other countries using the euro would want us to join.

For precisely the reason that, if we adopted the Euro, the obvious consequence would be the fact that the British currency would be arguably the strongest in the world.

This is a benefit but a very small one. There is hardy any beaurocracy as it couldn't be simpler to exchange one currency for another. The argument that firms will no longer have to worry about exchange rates within Europe doesn't work as that will be offset by the unpredictable economic consequences of unfavourable interest rates, lower domestic demand etc.

The fact that firms do not have to worry about FX fluctuations is an ENORMOUS benefit to all forms of business. You cannot simply dismiss it by saying "interest rates". The argument regarding interest rates is a seperate argument. The fact is that the increase in stability and the ability to project budgets much further into the future due to the removal of one of the major causes of uncertainty in the busines world has enormous ramifications.

The manufacturing sector in the UK is basically dead. We don't have a comparitive advantage in it anymore. Our labour is expensive (due to employment laws, minimum wage etc), unproductive and unflexible so it unlikely to have any increase in investment. Also most large businesses are American so there would be no difference as we would still be using a different currency.

And why are our products expensive? Because sterling is so strong at the moment!

Come on! "Most large businesses are American"? What on earth do you mean? The UK has some enormous businesses. This is a non-argument.

I'm not sure what you mean here, do you mean the chance for British firms to invest through Europe? If so that's just taking investment out of the UK which would be terrible.

Foreign investors currently have to offset the increase in FX risk with any potential profits. Investors deal solely in risk and reward. Remove a major component of risk, and you have a far more attractive prospect for foreign investors.

This is more of a reason not to join! it would be great for consumers as they could easily buy lots of cheap european goods (especially since delivery prices are so low) so there would be a large drop in domestic demand for UK firms, causing unemployment to rise etc.

Not sure what you mean here...

[Slick]

The fact that firms do not have to worry about FX fluctuations is an ENORMOUS benefit to all forms of business. You cannot simply dismiss it by saying "interest rates". The argument regarding interest rates is a seperate argument. The fact is that the increase in stability and the ability to project budgets much further into the future due to the removal of one of the major causes of uncertainty in the busines world has enormous ramifications.

Its not a seperate argument, if you're worrying about the place your selling to or yourself going into recession that will be more of a worry than the previous worry of slight fluctuations in the exchange rate.

Most firms in the UK do not export. The ones which also do not import will have a negative impact due to interest rates but will not be affected by exchange rates. The ones who import will sell just to the UK, so as I explained before will face a drop in domestic demand and even if they don't, imported goods are only likely to make up a small proportion of their overall costs.

And why are our products expensive? Because sterling is so strong at the moment!

No, they will allways be more expensive due to our higher costs and high taxes. We're not called "rip off britain" for nothing.

Foreign investors currently have to offset the increase in FX risk with any potential profits. Investors deal solely in risk and reward. Remove a major component of risk, and you have a far more attractive prospect for foreign investors.

The above points all explain why we are not likely to recieve increased investment.

Come on! "Most large businesses are American"? What on earth do you mean? The UK has some enormous businesses. This is a non-argument.

It is a fact, most multinational companies are either American or Japanese.

Not sure what you mean here...

I mean that we are not likely to benefit from price transparency because our products are more expensive.

Therefore British consumers are more likely to purchase goods from abroad so they will no longer be buying as many goods from British companies. Our companies will see a drop in demand and will have to compensate by laying off staff i.e. increase in unemployment