European Referendum...Vote now!

[Blub2k]

Our labour is expensive (due to employment laws, minimum wage etc), unproductive and unflexible so it unlikely to have any increase in investment.

Wrong on point one, the UK has the worst employment laws in the EU, point two however is correct.

[Slick]

Wrong on point one, the UK has the worst employment laws in the EU, point two however is correct.

Our labour is more expensive though, maybe for other reasons. That's why manufacturing firms have all moved to Easten countries as they can get away with paying lower wages.

[Rythmic]

Working for the European branch of an International organisation - the 6 currencies that didn't join are a right pain in the arse to deal with TBH. The continually changing exchange rates make it difficult to tell wether we're even making a profit on some items.... We've already seen the dollar drop in value and investors going for the Euro and Yen instead (believe me thats caused all kind of problems). The dollar has not been so low in many years.

The idea with the Euro is stability - it's like having a lot of boats on a lake - if you're in a small boat, you'll get rocked about by the large boats. Whereas in a large boat, you don't even feel it if a small ship sinks...

I personally feel we have more in common with France, Germany etc. than say America - while we may speak the same language as Americans, our way of life is actually much closer to Europe.

In fact, I've seen more intolerance of the French in Americans than English - which is wierd, cause apart from the last hundred years (almost exactly) we've been at war with them - while the French paid for the war of independance. Please don't get me wrong - I have nothing against Americans - most of this is fueled by the media (does anyone remember Murdochs campaign against labour a few terms back, when John Major got a second term?)

On a side note I remember a few months ago a survey being published on peoples reasons why not to have the euro. The top three where (IIRC)

1) We lose control of our currency. - Quite frankly - did we ever have control of our currency???? Goverment has no control of interest rates anymore anyhow.
2) The queens head won't be on the coin/notes - which it will, if we go down the euro route.
3) Shops will put up prices - well can't argue with that one - happened at decimalisation.

TBH we've got a choice - either we continue to be a small country, or we choose to be part of something bigger.

[DaBeeeenster]

Its not a seperate argument, if you're worrying about the place your selling to or yourself going into recession that will be more of a worry than the previous worry of slight fluctuations in the exchange rate.

That sentence doesnt make sense

Most firms in the UK do not export. The ones which also do not import will have a negative impact due to interest rates but will not be affected by exchange rates. The ones who import will sell just to the UK, so as I explained before will face a drop in domestic demand and even if they don't, imported goods are only likely to make up a small proportion of their overall costs.

Hmmm. Firms that do not import OR export anything? Britain is not a particularly resource rich country...Most business will do some form of importing or exporting.
I'd like to see you back up the statement above with some figures...

No, they will allways be more expensive due to our higher costs and high taxes. We're not called "rip off britain" for nothing.

Relative to other EU countries, our taxes are not high. What do you mean here? We dont have high taxes...
Sterling has been strong for a long time now. That will have contributed to the concept of rip off Britain.

The above points all explain why we are not likely to recieve increased investment.

Rubbish! Explain your argument. You cant side step the point that easily

It is a fact, most multinational companies are either American or Japanese.

So what?

I mean that we are not likely to benefit from price transparency because our products are more expensive.

Therefore British consumers are more likely to purchase goods from abroad so they will no longer be buying as many goods from British companies. Our companies will see a drop in demand and will have to compensate by laying off staff i.e. increase in unemployment

Why will british consumers buy more goods from abroad? At the moment Sterling is strong, so there is more reason for people to import European goods from non UK companies.

[DaBeeeenster]

TBH we've got a choice - either we continue to be a small country, or we choose to be part of something bigger.

This is my main reason for being pro-Euro. I think it's called progress, and I am a progressive. Even if it meant a few quid less in my company current account every month, I'd happily do it for the simple reason that I think European integration is progress.

Just hypothetically. Fast forward 50 years. Imagine the EU has expanded at a steady rate, and now includes all of Eastern Europe and the Balkans, as well as a large number of Soviet states and a number of countries in North Africa. Is that not progress? People working together, peacefully, under a common constitution? Is that not an ideal to strive towards?

[Blub2k]

And then we all gang up and kick the USA's ass, or maybe that's just a dream

[TiG]

What i don't see being argued is the reverse point, if you are a NO vote, doesn't that put us in a worse situation?, Say the Euro becomes weaker and weaker, and makes their currency worth less and less vs the pound, that means, we'll loose all manufacturing capability in the country right?, (moving to eastern europe, india and the rest of asia)

Doesn't that increase unemployment?, reduce investment etc etc, hasn't there been constant threats from Europe to stop cars being manufacturered outside the euro zone and being brought into europe to be sold.

Europe as a combined economic power is HUGE, and more powerful than the US, (please note the steel tarriffs the US tried to impose - and threatened a trade embargo with Europe), who says that couldn't happen to us.

I think there are aspects of Europe that need to be resolved, I feel beauracracy in the Eu is huge and costs far too much and tbh i've still not seen a great deal of information on the investigations that where supposed to be going on in Brussels some years back following the scandals of how much money was wasted.

I am personally very worried that the Bush administration will cause us immense grief if we do not form a stronger partnership with Europe. We cannot rely on the US for Trade as we do much more trade with Europe than we do with the US (sorry no figures to back this up but 99% certain this is true)

Things like the agriculture policy of the EU needs to be changed, and also contributions and conformity to the EU policy needs to be addressed. And costs of goods will go up on the whole from a rounding thing.

E.G - A Car will cost £9999 before euro, and will be 16318.368 Euro's at made up current exchange rate of 1.632 -, however you know what we are like at having 9's at the end the car would end up costing 16499 or 16999 a increase in percentage, just down to neat numbers.

TiG

[Galant]

We have low taxes? Only if you grade on a curve! Face facts, we have high enough taxes as it is, and as you nicely pointed out, taxes in the rest of Europe are higher, often MUCH higher, so what do you think is going to happen if we further join the collective?

French and German societies always push towards more and more taxes, for big, big government, and remove responsibility from the individual.

Hadn't heard that the French healthcare was the best? How was that article then? Take a look around. It's a case in point that big government, and more money into it, creates dependence and irresponsibility. All that free healthcare removed its value for the French. They take it for granted, rack up huge healthcare bills, which the government then has to cope with. They go to the doctor for every little thing, get more medication than they probably need, all because it's 'free' - but it isn't, they are paying for it. The same attitude affects many other areas.

Also Dab. pick a stand point please, is having a very strong Pound a good or a bad thing, you seem to suggest both?

One last thing I'd like to know, is what you love so much about Europe, beyond the debatable economic benefits you've cited.

[Clingy]

Please tell me you support the town...?

Oh Yes

[spikegifted]

Which way would you vote

Dude... What is the question that you're asking? Are you trying to find out if we're in favor of the Euro? Or are you concerning about the European Constitution or other future 'features' of the EU?

[DaBeeeenster]

The Euro...

[DaBeeeenster]

We have low taxes? Only if you grade on a curve! Face facts, we have high enough taxes as it is, and as you nicely pointed out, taxes in the rest of Europe are higher, often MUCH higher, so what do you think is going to happen if we further join the collective?

What does joining the euro have to do with changing tax rates? Nothing.

French and German societies always push towards more and more taxes, for big, big government, and remove responsibility from the individual.

Hadn't heard that the French healthcare was the best? How was that article then? Take a look around. It's a case in point that big government, and more money into it, creates dependence and irresponsibility. All that free healthcare removed its value for the French. They take it for granted, rack up huge healthcare bills, which the government then has to cope with. They go to the doctor for every little thing, get more medication than they probably need, all because it's 'free' - but it isn't, they are paying for it. The same attitude affects many other areas.

Look at the US model. Something like 60 million people (~20% of the population) have no healthcare. Do you want people in the UK dieing of brain tumours because they didn't have healthcare? That happens regularly in the US.

I agree that there needs to be a level of personal responsibility, but I dont think healthcare should be part of this.

Also Dab. pick a stand point please, is having a very strong Pound a good or a bad thing, you seem to suggest both?

It's not whether the pound is strong or weak; it's the fact that it can change relative to the Euro. This is what causes so many of the problems that I have been talking about.

One last thing I'd like to know, is what you love so much about Europe, beyond the debatable economic benefits you've cited.

I answered that point here:
http://forums.hexus.net/showpost.php...2&postcount=37
Maybe you could address these points.

[Byatt]

We have low taxes? Only if you grade on a curve! Face facts, we have high enough taxes as it is, and as you nicely pointed out, taxes in the rest of Europe are higher, often MUCH higher, so what do you think is going to happen if we further join the collective?

French and German societies always push towards more and more taxes, for big, big government, and remove responsibility from the individual.

This may or may not happen, but I am fairly miffed at the constant ideal that more tax causes a reaction in some people close to how I'd react if I heard the apocalypse was coming - yes, there's certainly a mismanagement argument in this country about public money spending (I'd cite PFI here.) but you either make a choice - have what you call "high" taxes and get high quality, free public services, or have mediocre to poor services for free and private options for those with the cash (becoming more and more prevalent in the UK under a "left wing" government. whatever next?)- this is obviously a simplification but it's based on a solid core of common sense - you get what you pays for!

Bit of a thread derail, but it had to be said.

[Rythmic]

I hate to say it Galant - but most of your views seem to be based on what the media reports - which as we all know tend to concentrate on particular issues than give a well rounded view (sells more papers / gets more views). Your use of the world 'we' I find confusing - you live in America do you not?

Every country with national health care gets problems - we have a problem in this country where people ring 999 or their local doctor for silly things. I'd rather have this than have access to a casualty (Emergency Room in the US) for 40% of the population. The problem with people getting "more medicine than they need" is worldwide - it's why antibiotics are becoming useless.

Some EU countries have higher taxes than the UK, some lower. In a lot of cases, it's hard to work this out, cause taxes are on different things. The UK for example has the highest tax on petrol in the world while Greece charges VAT at 21%.

No one said that progress in Europe is easy - but that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile.

[Galant]

I live in the USA and have for three years. I'm still a British citizen, and love the UK.

Firstly, all this talk about the US medical system. You seem to have this impression that people can't get the healthcare they need, not true. Now I don't agree with the way all healthcare over here is run, there are changes that need to be made, however, no-one will be left in need of urgent care for lack of money. Anyone can go to an ER and get seen. I live here. I know. I don't even have medical insurance. So please, there aren't masses of people dying or suffering because the money grabbing Americans wont let them in because they're poor.

Euro has nothing to do with higher taxes? It will. The more we become one with Europe, the more Europe will dictate what goes on in Britain, taxes and all. I repeat myself again, monetary union is, and always has been, a pre-cursor to governmental union.

"I agree that there needs to be a level of personal responsibility, but I dont think healthcare should be part of this."

What? The average person is too stupid to be responsible for their own healthcare? Brings something to mind - if people can't be responsible for their own money, what makes you think they'll be any more responsible with everyone else's? Which is exactly the case.

I think a suitable model lies somewhere in between the US and UK.


"It's not whether the pound is strong or weak; it's the fact that it can change relative to the Euro. This is what causes so many of the problems that I have been talking about."

Remeber this? -
"For precisely the reason that, if we adopted the Euro, the obvious consequence would be the fact that the British currency would be arguably the strongest in the world."

So is the strength of the pound an issue or not?

[Byatt]

Euro has nothing to do with higher taxes? It will. The more we become one with Europe, the more Europe will dictate what goes on in Britain, taxes and all. I repeat myself again, monetary union is, and always has been, a pre-cursor to governmental union.

Would like to see some evidence of this considering the fact that the current european constitution draft keeps all tax decisions "at home" - it's a very very secretive pre-cursor if it is one.

I think you've managed to misconstrue dabeenster as well (I'm sure he'll be back to argue this point better than I), since your second quote has absolutely nothing to do with the strength of the pound but the strength of the euro after the UK joins (unless you're considering that the strength of the pound will cause a major change in what would happen at this stage - I doubt this) . I would have thought the variability issue explained itself - it's hard enough staying competitive in a business without suddenly having to shell out 50% more to a certain supplier because an exchange rate has changed.