6 arrested in Gateshead for burning Koran

[redddraggon]

It's all quite hypocritical.

The Muslims are building a Mosque overlooking the site of their* victory of 9/11 which is likely to offend more people, seemingly to rub the West's nose in it all. And there's nothing that can legally be done about it. Is "offense" thing not all a bit one sided?

*Used in a loose fashion.

[dangel]

It's all quite hypocritical.

The Muslims are building a Mosque overlooking the site of their* victory of 9/11 which is likely to offend more people, seemingly to rub the West's nose in it all. And there's nothing that can legally be done about it. Is "offense" thing not all a bit one sided?

*Used in a loose fashion.

Personally I thought the yanks lost the plot on that one (way to expand the debate btw) but then if you correlate islam as meaning "terrorist" (yeeeeeee-haa!) then I guess that all makes sense. Bloody daft if you ask me but there you are.

BTW I'm in the "West" and like most English folk (I'll guess) couldn't give a stuff about them having a mosque there.

[matty-hodgson]

It's all quite hypocritical.

The Muslims are building a Mosque overlooking the site of their* victory of 9/11 which is likely to offend more people, seemingly to rub the West's nose in it all. And there's nothing that can legally be done about it. Is "offense" thing not all a bit one sided?

*Used in a loose fashion.

Can of worms, open!

But yeah, that's something I disagree with massively! If Muslims want to get respect from the western world, they need to show respect to those in the western world too, and building a mosque SO close to such a massive, Muslim caused, catastrophe is just plain wrong, and like you said, there's nothing we can do about it.

BTW I'm in the "West" and like most English folk (I'll guess) couldn't give a stuff about them having a mosque there.

I think that purely out of respect for all those families that were destroyed on that day, the mosque should be built further away from Ground Zero.

[finlay666]

End of the day yes what they did was stupid, and if they didn't burn the book they would have done pretty much nothing wrong in the eyes of the law.

[dangel]

I think that purely out of respect for all those families that were destroyed on that day, the mosque should be built further away from Ground Zero.

I wonder as to what the specific acceptable distance might be? I'd suspect for angry, broken hearted yanks who lost loved ones the answer might be "Iran".

TBH (as I said) I find the whole thing odd - the site isn't all that close and my brain isn't wired islam=terrorism because a: i've met plenty of them, b: i've travelled round the world (unlike most of America) and c: i'm a grown-up.

[matty-hodgson]

I wonder as to what the specific acceptable distance might be? I'd suspect for angry, broken hearted yanks who lost loved ones the answer might be "Iran".

TBH (as I said) I find the whole thing odd - the site isn't all that close and my brain isn't wired islam=terrorism because a: i've met plenty of them, b: i've travelled round the world (unlike most of America) and c: i'm a grown-up.

I dunno about an acceptable distance, but 2 blocks isn't really that far, I'm just trying to see things from the perspective of those that lost family members, friends, colleagues...

[aidanjt]

I do apologise.

Could you please clarify exactly who you meant by 'tyrannical arseholes who are dictating to me what I may or may not say' from the following?

Were you refering instead to people who may be seeking to remove your right to freedom of expersion, or 'free speech'?

Apology accepted.

My issue is not with Islam, or Muslims, but pseudo-Muslims who over-react to any perceived slight to their brand of religion, with feigned outrage, just because they have nothing better to do. My issue is with the police who pushed for discriminatory anti-discrimination legislation with such a massively broad scope of authority, and then compounding that by only enforcing against majority groups. My issue is especially with useless politicians who signed off on it without giving it any critical thought, or realising that it tramples on human rights and civil liberties.

At the end of the day, it's the men in parliament who pass laws that the police enforce, and if they're too incompetent to block unethical bills, then they should go. But everyone along the whole line who contributed to the existence of the legislation and its amendments are tyrants.

[dangel]

I dunno about an acceptable distance, but 2 blocks isn't really that far, I'm just trying to see things from the perspective of those that lost family members, friends, colleagues...

So was I - I think you missed the point..

[tiggerai]

Thread closed for now - I've had it reported and a PM to my inbox.

[peterb]

OK - it is an emotive subject - but quite frankly some of the posts here are pretty close to trolling.

Whether or not "no-one has a right nott to be offended" there is in a democracy that enshrines free speech or freedom of expression an implied responsibility to use that right wisely and dare I say, sensitively.

And that goes for HEXUS too - while you may not have a right "not to be offended" there is a responsibility not to cause gratuitous offence.

The thread has been re-opened and moved to QT - but any repetition of the tone of some of the comments or behaviour will result in more sanctions applied and the thread closed permanently.

[dangel]

To be fair, this was always one that was going to skirt close to the edge - although I agree, some of the things posted here shocked me (in that people hold such a view) but on the whole I think it's been pretty reasonable. I agree with the sentiment that freedom of expression has to be tempered and therein lies the difficultly - not only for hexus mods but for us as a whole. It's never an easy call but (as i've tried to point out) sweeping generalisations about large blocks of people are usually ill informed to say the least.

In every facet of society there are (frankly) the mentally ill, the easily led, the stupid and the ignorant. The latter is an interesting one because we're all that in some way - certainly over the years I've learnt much to change my view of the World we live in and if I could impart one piece of advice to anyone here is that you can't know everything, especially if you've not experienced it yourself.

People are intrinsically good - OK some aren't but they aren't 99% of the population. Some are easily led, foolish or ill educated - but this doesn't make them evil either. I think the focus on negativity is overwhelming in the modern 24 media World and it's easily to let those things solidify in our minds as fact, as "givens" if you will. Ask yourself, are all catholic priests paedophiles? does the bible or Koran teach your to murder, maim and kill? are all Muslims terrorists? Of course not. To suggest otherwise is completely ridiculous and yet some do - and worse still some take up the mantle. And so here we are.

So we're all here to learn, so let's debate the realities - rather than some daily mail/fox news-esque nonsense which frankly disservices us all.

Blimey, that was pretty serious for me Must be the gin..

[JPreston]

So...some men burned a book which they owned, on private property with permission (and not in the presence of anyone who was offended, mind - not that the law is there to safeguard people's feelings in any case), and later published the video online.

Suddenly, there was a video somewhere on the internet which would potentially offend a religious muslim, were he to actively seek it out and view it.

What an unthinkable and entirely unprecedented situation! I mean, somebody somewhere might have been offended by something they could potentially have looked up on the internet!

I'm glad that the police prioritised this cataclysmic event highly enough to arrest the men en masse and they weren't busy chasing rapists and burglars instead. Because a transgression against a 'special' manufactured cellulose artifact is clearly a very serious crime that entirely warrants the international attention this incident will no doubt get.

While typing this I was torrenting an ebook koran. I'm going to delete it in 3...2...1....gone. Perhaps I should expect a knock at my door?

[G4Z]

IBM, just want to say that no there is nothing at all you could say to me that would make me react violently short of threatening harm to me or somebody else (In which case I might resort to violence if I felt there was no other option and I was sure you intended to carry out said threat). You could say anything about my family my girlfriend or my beliefs you like and I will not be offended, after all why should I care what somebody else thinks or says. I can't control you, only my reaction to what you say, and yes there is a sanction I can use against this which is to ignore it and you. There is no need to resort to violence because you are offended ever, and every civilised person should understand this. I will say again as I said before, I know that the vast majority of religious people understand this.

These men have been arrested because the police believe that burning a koran is going to incite violence of some sort, weather it does or not is academic because clearly our society has already been changed enough for people to be arrested because somebody chooses to be offended and yes it is a choice. Even if you say something to me which by any measure can be considered vile by any reasonable person its still my choice weather to be offended or not, I'm not big on Jesus as you no doubt know but I have to say he has a point about turning the other cheek.

[JPreston]

IBM, just want to say that no there is nothing at all you could say to me that would make me react violently short of threatening harm to me or somebody else (In which case I might resort to violence if I felt there was no other option and I was sure you intended to carry out said threat). You could say anything about my family my girlfriend or my beliefs you like and I will not be offended, after all why should I care what somebody else thinks or says. I can't control you, only my reaction to what you say, and yes there is a sanction I can use against this which is to ignore it and you. There is no need to resort to violence because you are offended ever, and every civilised person should understand this.

Bloody hell, very very good stuff indeed

[Peter Parker]

Any discussion of violence and/or retaliation seems secondary to me, since as far as I know that hasn't happened (yet :/ ). And as for the race thing... there's really only one race that you're talking about - http://www.ernestcline.com/dmd/

I was interested in their suspected crime of inciting racial hatred though. The legal act is discussed on wikipedia FWIW - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_...atred_Act_2006 As a law it looks crufty, though by sharing the video on YouTube it's likely these muppets can be shown to have an "intent ... to stir up religious hatred". I also looked up some articles about Terry Jones in the USA who wanted to burn copies of the Koran/Quran on 11th Sept this year. It seems things like burning scripture or the American flag aren't actually crimes as such over there - they're protected under the right to free speech.

Personally I'm against symbolically burning flags/books/whatever (if they're your property!) as it's just rude, stupid, bad for the environment, and the K Foundation pretty much did the definitive version IMO. I'm astounded that we need a law to prevent it. I wish people didn't get so worked up about it though. It's just a flag/book/whatever and that much devotion to an inanimate object starts to seem like idolatry to me, which would probably be ironic.

It's too much to hope that they're actually avid Ray Bradbury fans who were making a 'sweded' version of Farenheit 451 and that the Koran was just a mistake. Oh ... and did anyone else think that this looks like the guys in the vid?!

[Terbinator]

If only Dicky Dawkins could see this thread and plenty of the others we've had on here