Religion & Responsibility

[chuckskull]

A religion thread in QT? I know, I know; try not to die of shock.

So last night I was watching Traffic Cops; http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ning_on_Empty/ I'm a sucker for a good car chase.

One scene(about 15 minutes, blue focus) involves an officer chasing a car thief on foot after a car chase. After what can I only be described as a short jog, the officer is on his knee's vomiting. He has not eaten or drank anything since before sunrise and it is now the afternoon. He is weak, dehydrated, alone and at one point appears quite disoriented passing through the cordoned area and being mistaken for the suspect by the police helicopter. The suspect escaped.

He is fasting for Ramadan. Comprising his mental and physical abilities as such a fast would do to anyone. There is no way he could pass a police physical in such condition. This struck me as frighteningly irresponsible.

This wasn't any old bobby either this was a specialist entrusted to take greater risks and responsibilities, lead high speed pursuits and soon to be or already armed with Taser.

I have no problem with Muslims being police officers nor with them observing Ramadan if they so choose, I've even celebrated Iftari with Muslims on quite a few occasions and had a great time, every time, but you can't have you cake and eat it if you'll excuse the pun. This time it was only a grubby hoody. Who was grassed up by his grubby hoody mate and was later arrested at home. What if it was the next Raul Moat or Derrick Bird, or just a hoody with enough stones to fight the police, as shown later in the same episode, leaving another officer puking, but this time from concussion? Let alone the risks of high speed response and pursuit. He could of gotten himself, other officers or members of the public killed.

To me this is utterly unacceptable and I believe that had been in such a state for any reason other than his religion he would of never been allowed out of the station or reprimanded for not being up to the job should that only become apparent after entering a pursuit.

[jim]

Not exactly the easiest situation to judge. Whilst in an ideal world, the entire force would be at full force all of the time, I don't think banning muslims and/or ramadan from the police force would be particularly productive. Dividing society is hardly going to help muslim relations in the UK.

Surely the logical answer is that, at the very least, officers taking part in ramadan should not be put in front-line situations where peak physical fitness and mental agility is required. However, at the same time, it seems unfair to pay them presumably increased rates of pay over other officers, if they're just going to sit in the station filling in forms all day - they aren't earning their extra pay. Then though, we're in a situation where people are effectively being paid different rates according to their religion, and doubtlessly many officers would deny they were incapacitated and remain adamant that they could continue their job (and receive the extra pay).

So as far as I can work out, the only logical solution is to take them off front-line duty for a brief period, and if necessary extend the same offer to non-muslim officers for the same period each year.

It would probably cost a fair few bob, but it seems a better option than just denying muslim officers the opportunity to practice their religion.

At least to me it does

[TheAnimus]

There is another issue with something as silly as starvation, pregonant woman.

[chuckskull]

Not exactly the easiest situation to judge. Whilst in an ideal world, the entire force would be at full force all of the time, I don't think banning muslims and/or ramadan from the police force would be particularly productive. Dividing society is hardly going to help muslim relations in the UK.

Surely the logical answer is that, at the very least, officers taking part in ramadan should not be put in front-line situations where peak physical fitness and mental agility is required. However, at the same time, it seems unfair to pay them presumably increased rates of pay over other officers, if they're just going to sit in the station filling in forms all day - they aren't earning their extra pay. Then though, we're in a situation where people are effectively being paid different rates according to their religion, and doubtlessly many officers would deny they were incapacitated and remain adamant that they could continue their job (and receive the extra pay).

So as far as I can work out, the only logical solution is to take them off front-line duty for a brief period, and if necessary extend the same offer to non-muslim officers for the same period each year.

It would probably cost a fair few bob, but it seems a better option than just denying muslim officers the opportunity to practice their religion.

At least to me it does

Oh no, if they tried to remove Muslims from the police force, simply for being Muslims I'd be outraged, and our police force would be worse off for it, indeed this officer seemed like he was very good at his job apart from being subject to the limits of human biology, but pragmatism must be applied, not only for public safety but for the safety of Muslim officers. In all likelihood if there were life changing consequences from such a scenario they would fall on the officer.

There are a number of solutions, yours, night shifts being another obvious one. Simply not taking part in Ramadan being another, there are other exceptions in the name of pragmatism, the ill, pregnant/nursing mothers, travelling etc. Sadly I doubt the subject will be officially broached until someone dies because of it, probably a Muslim officer, simply out of fear of causing offence and being branded islamaphobic.

[chuckskull]

There is another issue with something as silly as starvation, pregonant woman.

If you're talking about pregnant women observing Sawm during Ramadan, this is rare even in Wahabism, the most extreme of the Islamic sects, which generally treats women like meat.

[TheAnimus]

If you're talking about pregnant women observing Sawm during Ramadan, this is rare even in Wahabism, the most extreme of the Islamic sects, which generally treats women like meat.

Hmm More than there are rozzers I'd hazard a guess.

I think in Superfreakonomics they have some numbers to back up their research into children born with disabilities.

[jim]

Sadly I doubt the subject will be officially broached until someone dies because of it, probably a Muslim officer, simply out of fear of causing offence and being branded islamaphobic.

Very true. The first question though is whether someone on ramadan actually has the opportunity to remove themselves from front-line duty. I don't see how that could be judged islamophobic - if anything it would be at risk of being unfair to everybody else, which is why it would have to be extended to all officers.

Whether this particular person (and others in the same situation) were there because the force insisted they carried on as normal, or because they insisted they were capable of carrying on as normal is pretty important.

[chuckskull]

Hmm More than there are rozzers I'd hazard a guess.

I think in Superfreakonomics they have some numbers to back up their research into children born with disabilities.

Not sure what you're saying there mate, sorry.

Whether this particular person (and others in the same situation) where there because the force insisted they carried on as normal, or because they insisted they were capable of carrying on as normal is pretty important.

Good point, though I'd imagine that if an officer raised a concern about his condition, health and safety would come into play and bench them, but in such professions you're often dealing with very driven people who'll work themselves into the ground without complaint if you let them. Infantry is another profession where this happens quite a lot with dehydration, they'll literally keep working til their body simply shuts down, to a point where they often need CASevac their condition is so serious.

[jim]

Good point, though I'd imagine that if an officer raised a concern about his condition, health and safety would come into play and bench them, but in such professions you're often dealing with very driven people who'll work themselves into the ground without complaint if you let them. Infantry is another profession where this happens quite a lot with dehydration, they'll literally keep working til their body simply shuts down, to a point where they often need CASevac their condition is so serious.

That's sort of the point though - I doubt they were ever challenged at all (i.e. they just carried on because they felt no need to complain, not because they insisted formally to a more senior officer that they were fine).

Question comes back to your previous point - whether giving them the choice could (or in the present environment, might) be deemed islamophobic.

[GoNz0]

if there religion makes them unfit for duty they should be forced to use holiday to take it off, if they do not then face the disciplinary procedures for showing up to work in an unfit state the same as being drunken or hungover / influence of drugs as starvation can have the same effect as drink and drugs.

the guy on the telly needs making an example of IMHO, reprimand him and send the message out there that coppers need to be able to do the job they are paid for regardless.

lets face facts, should the offender have ran round the corner and killed someone that copper would be waist deep in it and possible up for manslaughter.

[jackvdbuk]

if there religion makes them unfit for duty they should be forced to use holiday to take it off, if they do not then face the disciplinary procedures for showing up to work in an unfit state the same as being drunken or hungover / influence of drugs as starvation can have the same effect as drink and drugs.

the guy on the telly needs making an example of IMHO, reprimand him and send the message out there that coppers need to be able to do the job they are paid for regardless.

lets face facts, should the offender have ran round the corner and killed someone that copper would be waist deep in it and possible up for manslaughter.

totally agree, i was so in shock this clip made TV. fasting as a police officer considering the type of physcial job policing is, totally irresponsible and clearly should book fasts as holiday. could have easily been worse than sick on the floor (plus a free dangerous driver)..

[Saracen]

if there religion makes them unfit for duty they should be forced to use holiday to take it off, if they do not then face the disciplinary procedures for showing up to work in an unfit state the same as being drunken or hungover / influence of drugs as starvation can have the same effect as drink and drugs.

the guy on the telly needs making an example of IMHO, reprimand him and send the message out there that coppers need to be able to do the job they are paid for regardless.

lets face facts, should the offender have ran round the corner and killed someone that copper would be waist deep in it and possible up for manslaughter.

I have to say I agree entirely with that, bar for the last 5 words, the "up for manslaughter" bit.

If someone decided to fast like this for any reason other than religion, and were unfit for duty as a result, disciplinary action should and very likely would follow. And in my view, so it should if someone voluntarily makes themselves unfit for their work religious reasons - it is not, in my view, acceptable to impose the burden of your religious a observations, regardless of what religion it is, on the employer, whether that employer is the taxpayer or a private business.

Religious entitlement and belief is a double-edged sword - employers should not discriminate for or against anyone on the basis of race, religion, nationality etc (with some very limited statutory exemptions), and so for me, what should be the case is :-

• all employers should seek to accommodate religious observance whether reasonably possible. Maybe that means being flexible with shift patterns to allow shifts that allow for eating outside dawn-dusk periods. Maybe it even allows for taking additional unpaid leave. And so on.
  
  
• all employees have a duty to be fit and able for work, or to take time off if necessary, and while unavoidable circumstances (illness, accident, etc) have to be accepted, making yourself unfit does not, and that includes through religious observance just as it would if you were unfit because of booze, or because you ran a marathon right before your shift.
  

But note - I'm not saying this is where the law draws the line. I'm saying it's my view of where it ought to draw the line.

And that double-edged sword again .... there are situations where an employer is allowed to discriminate in favour of people from a given religion where it's fundamental to the nature of the job. An example might be perhaps you need to be Jewish, Muslim or Christian to be teaching in a Jewish, Muslim or Christian school, and you certainly might need to be for some subjects.

But, just as the law allows some discrimination on the basis of ability to do a given job, it ought to prevent discrimination against all those not of a given religious discrimination by not allowing religion to be used as an excuse for not being fit for work.

To put that another way, if religion is necessary to qualify for some jobs, then it ought to disqualify you from others, if you are not able to do the job.

[shadowmaster]

Taking Ramadan off as a holiday and rearranging shifts ie maybe do the night shift, would probably be the best option. If thats not possible, take an office job and a small pay cut for a month so its fair. As a Muslim myself I would take some holidays off and mix it up with some night shifts. If you gave these options I imagine most front line Muslim officers would be quite understanding especially if you make it clear that both public safety and their own safety is at risk. Ramadhan is only for 4 weeks out of 52, so as long as there is some level of flexibility on both sides, a stage should not be reached where you have dehydrated Muslim cop chasing a criminal. Anyhow just a brief sidenote, you only need to fast if you are physically and mentally fit, if you are pregnant, lactating, ill, travelling, startving, or a child you dont fast, the former four have to make it up anytime later. If you a chronic condition like diabetes, then you don't fast and instead give a certain amount of money to charity. If at anytime you become quite ill during a fast, you can break it.

Man its been a while since I have last posted, chuckskull when did you become moderator?! Congrats

[chuckskull]

Man its been a while since I have last posted, chuckskull when did you become moderator?! Congrats

Been a month or so now, thanks and welcome back.