More than 1/3 of the passengers were headed to an AIDS conference in Australia, including more than one of the most important global leaders in AIDS research.
I wonder how many additional people will die over time as the result of one moustached idiot's desire to show off his big toy.
or 1 Russian spetznaz on orders from Moscow to teach the west a lesson....Originally Posted by directhex
When in doubt, always bet on incompetence..
The Ukranian military was shown transporting Buk Systems in the area of play as early as July 4th,according to pictures from AP.
Expect lots of counterclaims from both sides.
When in doubt,armchair generals say lets go to war,but only of its others doing the fighting!
I wonder how many have experienced a full blown war first hand,or lived during one?
ROFL.
So I suppose when the US shot down Iran Air Flight 655 over Iranian waters,and the crew got battle commendations for the tour,that was the CIA trying to teach the Iranians a lesson??
Or when the Soviets shot down KAL 007,it was to show those pesky South Koreans a lesson for hosting US forces in Asia??
Or when the Ukranians shot down Siberia Airlines Flight 1812,and killed loads of Jewish people it was an act of vengence against Israel??
Or was it just incompetence from trigger happy or incompetent people. I vote the latter.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 18-07-2014 at 09:46 AM.
The rebels have reached the site first, expect them to tamper with the evidence and take away the black box,
they might as well put a Ukraine flag and say 'Ukraine Woz here 2014'
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'The Fox is cunning and relentless, and has got his Fibre Optic Broadband'
The thing is everyone is sure it is a Buk system. The Russians supposedly have Pantsir S1 systems on the border:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantsir-S1
These should have enough altitude(15km) to take out an airliner,and have a much smaller warhead.
Action will not be taken, Russia has their own Nuclear gambit if all else fails. Shame
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'The Fox is cunning and relentless, and has got his Fibre Optic Broadband'
I think since Russia "did it" expect something to happen,just like with KAL 007. OTH,where does the line stop - if the rebels did capture a system,unless you can prove the Russian government was involved in making it operational and firing the system,then saying the Russians "did it" is not so easy to prove,especially since you have people from Russian travelling into the country to "help out" their brethren,which unless you can again prove it was order by the Russians...and so on.
However,look what happened with the Iran Air shootdown. Supposedly,an Airbus A300 was shotdown since it looked like an F14 over Iranian waters. This was with a state of the art Aegis system BTW.After that happened and the ship finished its tour of duty,the entire crew got commendations and medals for a sucessful tour of duty,and not a single one of them ever got a rap for what happened. They are all finished their careers and retired with full pensions and a clean record.
It did not help that the only people with European passports onboard were one Italian and six Serbians,most were Iranians who nobody apparently cared about.
It then took years of litigation for the US to pay $130 million in compensation with the clause,that they would never admit responsibility.
Fast forward to Lockerbie. Decades of sanctions against Libya,who eventually paid $2.7 billion in compensation to lift sanctions including admitting responsibility for the action. Even then it is still suspected Iran actually was responsible for the bombing.
It seems some lives(well European and American ones,and probably white ones especially) are worth more than others.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 18-07-2014 at 10:04 AM.
Saracen (18-07-2014)
there is no doubt allegedly of who is responsible now Coversation here quite shocking really, I think they realise what they did but justified it by saying there were all spies flying into a war zone.
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'The Fox is cunning and relentless, and has got his Fibre Optic Broadband'
Yes,from the Ukranian military,which the Russians will say is fabricated and are "stooges" of the Americans who cannot be trusted or Nazis or whatever colourful metaphors the Russians use.
So at this point,expect out lot to make more sabre rattling,the Russians will do too. Then expect a few months to a year of hostility(we need some kind of xenophonia round them parts,eithers its the Russians,Chinese or Muslims and so on and Putin will spin it as the west hating Russians), sanctions and willy waving and when the Islamists start causing more problems,re-approachment in another year or two.
Like I said look at Iran Air,the US killed 300 people in the sovereign waters of another country. If the Iranians had done that to a US airliner over US waters,Iran would be a parched wasteland by now.
But I expect none of you really cared about it TBH.
The US got away with that - the Russians,will probably get some action against them,well since they are one of the three old enemies we have(red Russians,yellow Chinese or Islam/Middle East),and our defence spending is being reduced,so we need some way to keep it ramped up.
Plus expect nationalism to be ramped up in Russia. They have loads of issues,like declining birthrate,addiction issues,far right issues and so on. All will be buried since the west will be portrayed as the enemy trying to hurt mother Russia.
So,after Cold War MK1 we thought defence spending woulld go down.
It did not.
We had Saddam and Libya and so.
When that ended,we thought defence spending would go down.
It did not.
We had Iraq MK2,Afghanistan and Islamists.
When that ended,we thought defence spending would go down.
It did not.
We have Cold War MK2.
That blows over.
Will defence spending go down?
No it won't.
YELLOW CHINA alert - they will take over the world.
And so on...!
Want a securish job,looks like the military industrial complex is a good bet!
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 18-07-2014 at 10:25 AM.
Saracen (18-07-2014)
Military action won't be taken, even if fault can be laid directly at the Russian's door which, so far at least, we can't.
Also, we can't blame Russia just because the missile was Russian-made, without being held responsible for what is done with every weapon made in the UK, US, France, etc.
There's been a radio chat show this morning which rapidly descended from "what happened" to "how do we punish Russia and Putin". As far as I'm aware, there's not yet even certainty (publicly, at least) that it was a missile, even though that looks by far the most likely.
Nor is there any realistic chance of direct military action being taken against pro-Russian rebels by the West because, first, the logistics of getting adequate forces into the area, second it's right on Russia's doorstep, and third, if we stepped in to 'deal with' the rebels, it'd give Putin exactly the justification he needs, for his home audience, to step in himself and invade Eastern Ukraine, to 'protect' pro and ethnic Russians against Western "aggression".
The best thing to do to honour those killed is to try to leverage that into stopping the killing in Ukraine, to try to push Putin into stepping back, and getting a diplomatic solution to the violence.
If that isn't possible, then assuming this can be proved to be a missile from either Russia or pro-Russia rebels, about all we realistically can do is ever-increasing sanctions that really bite, maybe restricting Russian aircraft from our airspace, and refusing to fly over Russia. Even then, we'd have to be prepared for Putin to bite back, probably with gas supplies.
There was a lot of anger on that radio show I mentioned, right up to and including, and I kid you not, that World War 3 might be an acceptable price to pay for dealing with Putin.
Take a step back, a deep breath, bear in mind that nobody ever said the world was a fair place, or that "we" can solve all problems.
oh dear cat
Russian spetznaz in Ukraine - not exactly `rebels`.
Oh dear HalloweenJack. Unless you can show those people are an actual part of current Russian special forces detachments,then what does that prove??oh dear cat
Russian spetznaz in Ukraine - not exactly `rebels`.
Plus this:
http://humanrightsinvestigations.org...aine-debunked/
Plus this is what the BBC said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27104904
No doubt there are Russians in Ukraine like Cossacks and the like.
But are these Russian military people outside Crimea?
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 18-07-2014 at 10:33 AM.
my opinion of events (for what its worth) , political tin foil hat aside
an accident by the rebels.
they have been shooting down aircraft at an increased rate over the last few weeks - and yesterday was no exception - the commander initially believed they had shot at another AN26 , a radar blip looks like any other to a partially trained operator, or even a full trained trooper knowing what to do - a military transport flight over a war zone? vaild target.
so given the aircraft was at cruise @ FL330 heading south, whoever tracked it took the choice to kill it - quite mistakenly.
so outcome? finger pointing at Moscow by the west , who will shout just as loudly back again , whilst in the background , NATO makes noises (they are willing to fight Russia) and move assests around , politicians put down more sanctions - well the USA does as the EU are bent over a barrel regarding energy, and I *think* some constraints regarding shooting at high flying aircraft will quietly be mentioned.
same **** different day.
Well, the US are confirming that as far as their intelligence goes, it was definitely shot down. No word on by whom.
If, and it is a big if, it is proved Russian seperatists, and even if (and again big if) aided by Moscow, shot down the plane, I presume most would accept that it would not have been the intended target or, if it was, that it was a case of mistaken identity and, if proven so, things will go back to pretty much as you were, as they nearly always have when things like this have happened before.
The US still hasn't, according to some military mush on the radio last night, accepted responsibility for the Iranian flight it shot down in the 80's, despite paying out compensation. On the news this week I saw 4 kids targetted on a beach in Gaza, and the IDF, Backed and supported by the West, simply apologised, said they got it wrong and moved on. As terrible as it sounds, and as tragic as this incident is, it's not a game changer as some would like to have you believe. The only way it would take greater importance is if it could be proven that the passenger jet was shot down intentionally, by persons who knew it was a passenger jet.
So whilst no doubt there will be more posturing and sabre rattling by the West, with cries of hypocrisy from others, all of it will ultimately come to nothing, and this episode will end up as just another footnote in history. Sad, but true.
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