The new fundamentalists

[RoGuE|SaBeR]

To me the Big Bang falls down on it's origins. I am in no doubt that the laws of physics permit an event such as the Big Bang to occur but were did the original matter come from? Where did the energy come from?

Pre Big Bang did the Universe exist? Who or what caused the matter and antimatter in the universe to exist? The only thing that I can see that would cause it to exist is something outside of our own "dimension" if you will. I'll freely admit that such a conjecture doesn't prove the existance of a God or omnipotent being that would create it but it does leave that avenue open. To me the odds of us perfectly forming and being placed in this Universe as we are point to some sort of intelligent creator. That is my hypothesis although I believe it to be more than that.

[G4Z]

Rough, Ic an appreciate that and as I said several posts ago there is room for religion, however when it comes down to it none of these ideas are any more valid than the FSM or the giant teacup or any other deity you care to mention.

[Kumagoro]

Do you really think you have the mental capacity and education to appreciate how
big band theory works and its pitfalls... I would hazard a guess that realistically you
dont (not that I do). If you cant understand then you cant really say that isnt that way.

No offence to you, but i think only the people who study it professionally really have
any idea. Which is the whole point of those people.

[Stevo]

Kumagoro-By that same logic I could say that you don't believe in God or creation because you do not have the mental capacity to comprehend such things.
Or the Flying Sphagettic Monster for that matter.

Ok if there is no God, do you believe that Eugenics is a good idea? If not why not?
Or whats so wrong with exploiting people in third world countrys?
Why not kill off people with genetic disorders? Its only going to benefit mankind.

Why do we have a sense of right and wrong anyway?

[Kumagoro]

No I dont believe in god because I do have a mental capacity above that of an egg cup
unlike you. So you could say that but you would look like a tard.
Science and religion are not the same thing.

[G4Z]

Actually a sense of right and wrong may be an evolutionary thing as we are a social animal and we evolved to function best in groups...

[RoGuE|SaBeR]

No I dont believe in god because I do have a mental capacity above that of an egg cup unlike you. So you could say that but you would look like a tard.

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to achieve by saying things like that. Insulting people doesn't exactly contribute to the thread and doesn't increase the size of your manhood.

All you have contributed to this thread is to attempt to belittle people for thier belief and refused to enter into any sort of reasonable debate. Seems like a pretty good definition of close mindedness to me.

[Woodchuck2000]

Because science is based on the laws of nature.

No, it's based on our approximations to the laws of nature as we perceive them. Don't fall into the objectivity trap...

If something breaks those laws, the scientific method is to look for new laws.

Agreed.

To rely on a supernatural explanation is to pre-judge that such laws do not exist.

That simply doesn't follow. You're effectively saying that religious people do not believe in existence of the laws of nature which is patently untrue. I challenge you to give me an example of a scientific law/theorem that is incompatible with religion.

Since it is the very business of science to look for laws of nature, giving up and saying something is supernatural means giving up science.

Saying "God did it." does not preclude scientific methods. It's entirely possible to answer the question "How was the universe created?" with the answer "God did it." as long as the follow-up question "How did he do so?" is answered with "He caused the big bang (or big splat depending on your cosmology) to occur."

I suggest that religion can accept science in all cases as proof of how God operates. If you ask "What mechanism did God use to create life on earth?" then "Evolution." is a perfectly valid answer.

[Woodchuck2000]

To me the Big Bang falls down on it's origins. I am in no doubt that the laws of physics permit an event such as the Big Bang to occur but were did the original matter come from? Where did the energy come from?

Pre Big Bang did the Universe exist? Who or what caused the matter and antimatter in the universe to exist? The only thing that I can see that would cause it to exist is something outside of our own "dimension" if you will. I'll freely admit that such a conjecture doesn't prove the existance of a God or omnipotent being that would create it but it does leave that avenue open. To me the odds of us perfectly forming and being placed in this Universe as we are point to some sort of intelligent creator. That is my hypothesis although I believe it to be more than that.

But equally, where did God come from? Whether you believe in religion, science, or a combination of the above, origins are always going to be a problem. I suggest that in this case, no system of belief has an answer to the question "Where did stuff come from?"

[RoGuE|SaBeR]

Basically the crux of the matter comes down to whether you believe in a higher being that exists outside of our physical laws or whether the Universe is all that there is.

For me personally the idea that something that exists outside of what we perceive as time and space makes more sense as it would mean a God could create the matter and physical laws we know. Christianity believes that God has no beginning or end and a being like that can only exist outside of our perception of time, this aligns with the theory that the matter in our Universe came from something else.

[Stevo]

Actually a sense of right and wrong may be an evolutionary thing as we are a social animal and we evolved to function best in groups...

Surely then it would make sense to remove those from the group who are going to be a hinderance to its development?

Humanity as it exsists seems to go against evolution, weak people are not selected against ,in fact most of the time the strong care for the weak.
People care for elderly parents etc.
Why do we do this?, it doesn't benefit us in any way.
Im the animal world weak and elderly animals have no place and are left to die.

As far as were God came from, I believe there is no "God was", it is God IS. God is outside of time, in fact he created time and all the laws of science, in fact God created science. He has no beginning, no end, no dimensions. Thats pretty hard to get my head around, but I think that to believe that NOTHING exploded and created EVERYTHING is even harder to believe. A lot of scientists have rejected the idea that life came from chemicals in water after the "big bang" , they believe it was aliens, Sir Fancis Crick the guy who discovered the structure of DNA believed that and he was one of these guys-

No offence to you, but i think only the people who study it professionally really have
any idea. Which is the whole point of those people.

Which of course leads to the question- Where did the aliens come from?

[TeePee]

Evolution is an unproven theorey, albiet with plenty of people who support it, and to have it taught as Scientific proof without the possibility for other means of origin is just as bad as Faith Schools shielding them from other scientific theories.

As I have said, evolution is a scientific theory, and I have no problem with teaching of other scientific theories in science lessons. ID is not a scientific theory, but I have no problem with it being taught to children as a pssibility in religions studies lessons, along with myths and legends from other religions.

That simply doesn't follow. You're effectively saying that religious people do not believe in existence of the laws of nature which is patently untrue.

To believe in god is to believe that natural causes are insufficient to explain certain phenomena. The scientific view is that just because we don't fully understand the causes of certain phenomena, that doesn't mean that natural causes don't exist, and that we can look for them, instead of giving up and saying there must be something supernatural.

[TeePee]

Humanity as it exsists seems to go against evolution, weak people are not selected against ,in fact most of the time the strong care for the weak.
People care for elderly parents etc.
Why do we do this?, it doesn't benefit us in any way.
Im the animal world weak and elderly animals have no place and are left to die.

Humans aren't like other animals in many ways, we fill our own ecological niche, the biggest drive is towards adaptability and a societal structure. One theory regarding the desire to care for the elderly comes from a need to preserve wisdom and teaching for the benefit of the entire group. In a hunter/gatherer society this would benefit the survival of a tribe. Social Identity Theory may also come into play.
While the civil rights movement has changed modern society, the weak of ones own tribe are still of use to the majority, and so are cared for. They are still selected against, just look at Brad Pitt.. Strong males with a rugged jawline get more women! (although once pregnant, women prefer the geeky type of guy who is less likely to stray, maximising chnces of children with the best genes surviving infancy).

[Stevo]

One theory regarding the desire to care for the elderly comes from a need to preserve wisdom and teaching for the benefit of the entire group. In a hunter/gatherer society this would benefit the survival of a tribe.

One theory? So you are saying that you really dont know for certain why you actually care about the elderly. Also on the preserving wisdom thing, that logicaly means that you should kill off senile elderly people or any person with mental conditions for that matter.

Strong males with a rugged jawline get more women! (although once pregnant, women prefer the geeky type of guy who is less likely to stray, maximising chnces of children with the best genes surviving infancy).

So you are saying pregant women will dump their attractive partner and hook up with a geek who will support them?

Also how come there are so many genetic diseases? Surely the process of natural selection would have irradicated such imperfections, just the way that vaccinations have irradicated certain diseases such as smallpox.

[TeePee]

One theory, exactly.. I am probably wrong, in which case we should look for a better theory, I'm sure that in ten mintues with google I could find one. Or we could just take me being wrong as evidence of the existence of god...

Nope, I'm saying that in one study in which women were asked to rate the attractiveness of men from photographs on a scale of 1-10, pregnant women generally scored geeky types higher than women who weren't pregnant.
EDIT: See, here I was actually wrong! The shift is from men who appear strong and macho, to men who appear healthy. I guess you geeks are screwed (or not) either way!

Ignoring the genetic diseases which occur in later life, (allowing reproduction before onset), most, if not all, genetic diseases are recessive.

[Kumagoro]

I was harsh but fair,

just because you dont know about something doesnt mean scientific theories dont exist on the subject.

There are theories about where the energy came from in the first place for the big bang,
and how it came about.

All you can say about it is you dont like the idea of it based on your feeling

sorry to go back in the discussion