Should the government put a cap on migrant workers?

[nichomach]

yet again, i fail to understand what the buggery**** you're going on about

It's the foam round his mouth...I had the same problem with a heavily bearded chemistry teacher with a speech impediment.
Oh, and I voted "No", by the way. We're not going to be swamped - other countries in Europe have better employment laws, transport systems, working conditions, healthcare, education...

[Rave]

Oh, and I voted "No", by the way. We're not going to be swamped - other countries in Europe have better employment laws, transport systems, working conditions, healthcare, education...

Yeah, but, they have caps, and we don't. I'm sure most Poles would rather work in Germany but they can't so they come here.

I voted yes, not because I have any general problem with immigrants (my mum has a Pole living in her house at the moment), but for the following reasons, some of which have already been mentioned:

1) I think we're very close to the end of the current economic boom, and I think the bust that follows will be a nasty one, with big rises in unemployment etc. Most migrant workers will probably leave of their own accord, but there's no point IMO importing more workers just as our economy tanks.

2) We have a massive trade deficit at the moment, and migrant workers coming here and then sending their wages abroad are not helping that.

3) The wage deflation caused by large scale immigration affects the poorest the most, and thus helps to widen the rich/poor divide, which has already been greatly accentuated by our 'Labour' government. Wage inflation currently comes nowhere near to matching the real inflation in the cost of living that has happened over the last couple of years, with the result that more and more people are struggling. IMO the real threat to the future of our society is not our culture being diluted by immigration, it's the poor becoming more and more downtrodden until they snap.

[Alex Berry]

Wow! Directhex!...Nichomach! Are you two married?! Which one of you is the "wife"?
P.S. I was refering to directhex's pointless statistical breakdown which stated that 87% of the population discribed themselves as white British. (and only because that option the only one on forms these days!)
The English, Scottish, Welsh, etc... are proud of their individual identities.
And just because he/she posted it on the first thread doesn't change a thing!
Race really is a hang up with you two isn't it!

[YorkieBen]

I think that there should be a cap

Why? Whilst the vast majority are working, they are taking jobs away from British people - yes that it the old cry of the BNP but it is true - today I found out that in my hometown a decent sized pallet factory/warehouse is laying of alot of its existing workforce because they are replacing them with Polish workers who will work for alot less.

In addition I had my first encounter with a Polish bus driver today. He spoke about 4 words of English, not great when an old lady got on the bus and asked if the bus went to a certain place.

Is this right? Not really, the British govt should protect the interests of the nation and its population first. Every other EU country has capped the number of accession state workers and so should we.

[nichomach]

Wow! Directhex!...Nichomach! Are you two married?! (Which one of you is the "wife"?)

Excellent! For the record, dh and myself have never met, but descending into playground homophobia really throws the depths of your childishness, prejudice and ignorance into sharper relief. Oh, and I AM married...but not to dh.

P.S. I was refering to directhex's pointless statistical breakdown which stated that 87% of the population discribed themselves as white British.

Certainly not pointless in the light of your vilification of immigrants and paranoia that Britain and Britishness (or at least your narrow and antediluvian notion of it) was in danger of being overrun; it's also worth noting that that figure doesn't take into account members of ethnic minorities who are also British.

(and that option is only on forms idiot!)

I see...and where would you LIKE it to be? Again, despite the fact that the data comes from a reliable source (the National Census), you wish to discount it on the basis that it conflicts with your prejudices.

The English, Scottish, Welsh, etc... are proud of their individual identities.

Well, my mother comes from Peterhead and lives now in Edinburgh; she's still white British (unless the Scots have got hacked off with dealing with pillocks like you and have quietly seceded while no-one was looking...), and my wife is Welsh (and white British) so I'm well aware of their cultural identities. What's your problem? Oh, it's the facts conflicting with your prejudice thing again. Look, you're going to have to grow out of that eventually.

And just because he/she posted it on the first thread doesn't change a thing!

I'm pretty sure that both dh and myself are secure in our gender identities, thanks - but you seem VERY preoccupied with it...

Race really is a hang up with you two isn't it!

With us??? Ah...the Tipsy-Topsy World of Alex strikes again...

[malfunction]

I don't think caps are appropriate - at the end of the day (and I admit to being naive in this) I think that if people are prepared to work and have the skills to get a job then why not? I don't think it's pushing anyone out of a job. Even if the "they'll work for less money" argument is true that's part of a much bigger 'problem'. If you object to that then I think you should insist on buying only locally produced goods - and you'd better chuck you PC in the bin as 99% of the hardware in it was probably made in China by people 'earning pennies' and a lot of the software was probably written in India at a fraction of the cost it would take a purely (Western) European or American software house to churn out. Unfortunately I do think that the west has bad financial times ahead longer term but personally I see a global economy as a good thing on the whole - I think the good effect on poorer countries will outweight any bad effect on the richer countries that have historically taken advantage of them in the long term.

In addition I had my first encounter with a Polish bus driver today. He spoke about 4 words of English, not great when an old lady got on the bus and asked if the bus went to a certain place.

I tried to resist adding more troll comments but I have to ask the obvious question - how the hell did you know he was Polish then? Did he have a badge on?

[Rave]

I don't think caps are appropriate - at the end of the day (and I admit to being naive in this) I think that if people are prepared to work and have the skills to get a job then why not? I don't think it's pushing anyone out of a job. Even if the "they'll work for less money" argument is true that's part of a much bigger 'problem'. If you object to that then I think you should insist on buying only locally produced goods - and you'd better chuck you PC in the bin as 99% of the hardware in it was probably made in China by people 'earning pennies' and a lot of the software was probably written in India at a fraction of the cost it would take a purely (Western) European or American software house to churn out. Unfortunately I do think that the west has bad financial times ahead longer term but personally I see a global economy as a good thing on the whole - I think the good effect on poorer countries will outweight any bad effect on the richer countries that have historically taken advantage of them in the long term.

So...what is Britain's future prosperity based on then, if we can't have economic protectionism? In theory I'm a socialist, in practice I'm **** scared of the forthcoming great economic leveling, because our country is nowhere near able to survive on an average wage of $5 a day, whereas China copes on far less.

I really think that in the near future the western way of life we've been used to for so long is utterly screwed. Which frightens me obviously.

Apologies, I'm drunk. But I don't think I'm wrong.

[iranu]

I don't think caps are appropriate - at the end of the day (and I admit to being naive in this) I think that if people are prepared to work and have the skills to get a job then why not?

Like I say we just need to import 25 million skilled Chinese. They'll work for 50p per hour and it will solve all our problems.

So are you in favour of allowing 25 million or how about 60 million Chinese workers here.? If you are not then you are proposing and supporting a cap are you not?

Caps are very very important. A cap is not a ban. A cap does not say "no more non-whites", "no more muslims" etc etc. A cap is rational, in effect it is a quota to stop massive social upheaval, turmoil and civil war. Imaging if 25 million Chinese did turn up on our doorstep. We invite them in they work hard, they pay taxes then they vote for the UK to become part of the Republic of China. Ok far fetched but you see the direction I going in.

I have spoken to several people and companies are now ILLEGALLY sacking workers and replaceing them with cheap Eastern European labour. Now put yoursleves in the position of those people who have been replaced. As Rave has already stated those people being displaced are already in the low income brackets. Do you think that there won't be tensions between an influx of migrants and those that have been sacked to make way for even cheaper labour? Would you not feel resentment towards someone not even born in this country taking your job?

How about culturally? People always bang on about how great it is to absorb other cultures but now we have the situation in Britain where Britsh Culture is not respected and we must let all other cultures have an equal say, eg. we are muslimns and we don't like your foriegn policy so we will kill people on the tube.

Every immigrant must lose the majority of their own culture and adopt British culture. Multi-culturalism is going to cost us alot. Combine this with unlimited immigration and it's going to turn nasty very quickly.

Britain should first and foremost be for the British. The Britsh government is sworn in to protect and do the best for the Britsh people. Not anyone else. This Labour government is the most corrupt, incompetent, miltaristic, totalitarian, two-faced democratic government this country has ever seen. It has no policy on immigration. It thinks in a leftish mindset of Britain as some culturally diverse paradise. It does not understand human nature, it does not repect Britsh values and as such is sowing the seeds that Enoch Powell forsaw.

[Alex Berry]

Can't take a joke, huh? And I said nothing derogatory about homosexuals. I also mean't that Englishmen, Scots, etc...should be able to state their individual identities on official forms, because grouping us all as "White British" is meaningless. We are not all looked at, or treated the same.
As for a cap on migrant workers, well you've pretty much all decided not only what I think, but also why.
I would stop immigration completely for the time being, and i've stated that I think this way because mass movements of people ANYWHERE at ANYTIME and at such SPEED, is a short-term, unsustainable solution to world environmental/economic problems.
Investment in poorer countries is what I would focus on.
But you ignore that explaination and simply call me racist.

[johnny02004976]

only Newham and Brent, in London, have more non-whites than whites

have u been to Bradford recently?

[directhex]

have u been to Bradford recently?

surprisingly, it still has a majority white population

[malfunction]

Well I have already said I'm probably being naive but as far as us being swamped by immigrants I just don't see it happening. For a start there are a barriers to people coming into the UK (financial for one, social for another - where I grew up entire families have lived on the same estate for years). We're also assuming this is the land of milk and honey / perceived to be so by so poorer countries... And if we did have a huge influx surely that in itself would have a levelling affect - to be cold about people's lives isn't this just a case of supply and demand?

[malfunction]

So...what is Britain's future prosperity based on then, if we can't have economic protectionism?

I don't think caps on immigration are going to help this at all. There's no answer I can see other than to let things play out. If you cap immigration there's still nothing to stop companies outsourcing almost everything they do to other cheaper countries... Try and stop outsourcing happening? Not sure you can...

[malfunction]

Like I say we just need to import 25 million skilled Chinese. They'll work for 50p per hour and it will solve all our problems.

I know you're being purposefully dramatic here but outside of illegal sweat shops I can't see anyone working in this country for anything like 50p / hour. It's just not feasible - the cost of living is too high.

So are you in favour of allowing 25 million or how about 60 million Chinese workers here.? If you are not then you are proposing and supporting a cap are you not?

Again there aren't enough jobs on the market to support an influx like this.

Caps are very very important. A cap is not a ban. A cap does not say "no more non-whites", "no more muslims" etc etc. A cap is rational, in effect it is a quota to stop massive social upheaval, turmoil and civil war. Imaging if 25 million Chinese did turn up on our doorstep. We invite them in they work hard, they pay taxes then they vote for the UK to become part of the Republic of China. Ok far fetched but you see the direction I going in.

I'm against caps... However I do believe that people should have to earn the right to long term residency and citizenship.

I have spoken to several people and companies are now ILLEGALLY sacking workers and replaceing them with cheap Eastern European labour. Now put yoursleves in the position of those people who have been replaced. As Rave has already stated those people being displaced are already in the low income brackets. Do you think that there won't be tensions between an influx of migrants and those that have been sacked to make way for even cheaper labour? Would you not feel resentment towards someone not even born in this country taking your job?

I work in IT and have a very real risk of outsourcing affecting my long term employment. Not a lot I can do about it. Still not sure there's a high risk of being replaced in this country - it all comes down to cost of living and supply and demand again surely? People with IT skills may come here because the salaries are so much higher than at home but if the salaries go down they'll go elsewhere.. I do worry about what will happen in the west longer term - if you take all the money out of the richer countries I'm not naive enough to think there won't be fall out from it.

How about culturally? People always bang on about how great it is to absorb other cultures but now we have the situation in Britain where Britsh Culture is not respected and we must let all other cultures have an equal say, eg. we are muslimns and we don't like your foriegn policy so we will kill people on the tube.

Again people must earn the right to long term residency and citizenship.

Every immigrant must lose the majority of their own culture and adopt British culture.

Why? Sure they should understand British culture... But who cares if they want to keep their own culture? It only becomes a issue where another culture is at odds to ours.

Multi-culturalism is going to cost us alot.

How so? Tolerating exteremist views may cost us a lot but locking out other cultures only goes to re-inforce extremist views.

What's so amazing about being British anyway? Yob culture? Binge drinking? Highest rates of teenage pregnancy in Europe (IIRC)? Or perhaps another side of thngs like the live to work rather than work to live culture we have these days?

[iranu]

Why? Sure they should understand British culture... But who cares if they want to keep their own culture? It only becomes a issue where another culture is at odds to ours.

And I'm saying that we have already reached that point. London Tube bombers and the recent attempted attack on aircraft spring to mind.

There is a saying, "When in Rome do as the Romans do". I do not see why this should only apply to the British and not to other people coming to this country. (And yes it does make me cringe when I see Union Jack English pubs abroad)

How so? Tolerating exteremist views may cost us a lot but locking out other cultures only goes to re-inforce extremist views.

Cost us alot, mmn so you think that it is right that people are allowed to incite violence over some cartoons just because it offends them. Tolerate extremist views like the implementaion of Sharia law. Perhaps we should start stoning women for adultry because afterall we should tolerate extremist views.

Nowhere have I said we should "lock out" other cultures. What I do say is that we should determine the number of people allowed to enter and where they come from so as not to get into the mess we are in.

The United States now considers the UK to be it's greatest threat with regards to terorism. This is because of the unprecedented levels of immigration from Muslim countries and the lack of any British government to see the dangers of radical preaching that has been going on for the past 20 years. Our capital has not earned the nickname "Londonistan" for nothing.

What's so amazing about being British anyway? Yob culture? Binge drinking? Highest rates of teenage pregnancy in Europe (IIRC)? Or perhaps another side of thngs like the live to work rather than work to live culture we have these days?

Perhaps you need to travel a bit and widen your horizons. Go and look at the repressive nature of many countrys. Burma, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan. Prefer to live there would we?

We have some of the earliest documentation on fundamental rights that form the backbone of our society. We have representation, democracy, established law. We have exported these concepts to the rest of the world. We pride ourselves on fair play and the rule of law.

Better a binge drinking, yob culture that is free to choose it's own way than a repressive culture cowering under a government that slaughters it's own people for it's own means.

[HyeongSeong]

I wonder how many people leave uk and heading for Europe and America each year? I am sure it’ll be more than 600000 since 2001. The fact of life is people have always been moved around for better life (just try to find a true brit today). When I was a student and worked in a bread factory, the factory can’t find enough people to employ (lots of people are putted off by the hard work and rather stayed at home on dough). So they have to bring people from Eastern Europe to fill the gap. Now I got a job in the IT industry and guess what the company I am working for is also finding difficulty in getting the right people. Some of the people they employ just stay long enough to get the needed working experience and heading for North America, New Zealand. (Just think of how many skilled brits we lose each year). If there is a cap , it should be a cap on the skill work leave uk .