Creation-ists view vs Science

[TiG]

Then i'm afraid you have failed, some people will always believe that coal is white even when its shown them and its quite clearly black. Yet there are some people that are so close minded that they cannot accept things that are trivial in comparision to religion.

A saying for you Zak - one that holds very true in life so far i've found, and yes it is from the bible. I've changed it slightly as i've found it holds more true to me.

"Please let me have serenity to accept the things I cannot change. Courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference between."

Accept that there are some things you can't change, but don't let it worry you, just focus on the things that you can.

TiG

[Dr. X]

I'm a bit late for the meat of the debate but I'll trop in my 2p anyways.

I do not know a single person who believes that the world was created in only 7 days. The Bible gives a finite number of generations between Adam and Eve and Jesus' generation, yet I have never met anyone who claims this to be fact. Since I was brought up in a Catholic family and Catholic schools doesn't this surprise you?

Methinks that Zak's view of religious institutions might be a bit over the top. (with all due respect Mr Zak)

In schools we were taught about the various creations theories (Creationism, Darwinism etc) and poked and prodded towards Darwinism. Of course there are extreme groups who will debunk anything that conflicts with their narrow minded view of the world and creation (I point you towards this sorry quote) but thankfully they are not present in the modern Church. Hell, even the RC Church admitted that creationism is nothing more that metaphor.

So chin up guys, the world isn't in as dire shape as you make it out to be.

[joshwa]

why do you think people who believe in 7day creation are narrow minded?

i believe in 7 day creation personally. if God is capable of making the whole universe world etc, which I believe He is, then why would he be limited to creating everything over a long stretch of time - if He is ALL powerful, then surely he can do whatever the heck he wants, surely he could have created everything in 7 seconds if he wanted - bam! all done!

i'm sure there's many other people who believe in a 7 day creation in the modern church, but that's not really that big a deal - it doesn't really matter to christianity whether it was 7 days or 7000 years, because that's open to interpretation.

the main thing is that christians believe the bible, otherwise, if they don't believe the beginning of it (about creation) why should they believe the rest?

the world is so wishy washy - what's wrong with having firm beliefs in stuff?

[Dr. X]

I don't believe in the creation story exactly as laid out in the Bible because of several important pieces of evidence missing...

Tracing the number of generations from Adam to Jesus leaves the earth at a maximum of 6000 years old... dinosaurs, fossils, Carbon-14 dating all point to the Earth being much, much older.

Yes, I believe that God created our Earth, our Galaxy.

People often talk to me as if being a scientist, I should have left my beliefs behind as they are not 'scientific'. Yet, when I think about the universe and it's origins more questions are raised. Big Bang theory... why was there a big bang, why did it start? If there was a 'time' before this Big Bang, where did all that kick off, where did 'time' start?

However

Back to the original aim of Zak's thread: can Sience ever win in front of opposition from extremeinsts who can't be persuaded from their views? I don't know. Religious and other institutions are made up of PEOPLE. People, if not institutions are more open to discussion and persuasion, so even if institutions become alienated and archaic people will be more open minded and open to being converted.

[Zak33]

DR.X....that sums it up mate.

TiG.....it does bother me...but I have stopped losing sleep over it and started shooting people in Il-2 to lift my spirits

And Josh....I believe you believe....but I also believe that you trust other people to have their own thoughts......

that's not always the case...

but if it WAS...and it was my sould purpose to convince you that it was NOT a 7 day wonder, but evolution and explainable....

would you go with it?

and you dont have to answer that....its not fair that you alone try to debate it. Its the THEORY that I like not the practical

[eldren]

Days late, I'm here to poke holes in stuff.

No one said God created the earth. The bible begins "In the beginning, the world was formless and empty...." Which means it was already there. So it could well be all those billions of years old - what God created was life. The sun and everything could also have already been there - God could just have ignited it all ("Let there be light").

7 days is 7 days. Each day of creation ends with the sentence "And there was evening/sunset and there was morning/sunrise - the xth day." As we all know, the duration from one day to the next is 24 hours, so 7 x 24 hours creation was. On an unrelated note, this is also why Jewish days start in evening.

Evolution being proven. Actually, no. Quoting mutation in bacteria is not proof. That's like saying humans are mutations in response to climate. Really? What climate prompted a sentient species? Mutations are not evolution.

I don't like the theory of evolution being referred to as "scientific." It is no more scientific than the biblical record.

Frankly, evolution is a means to deny special creation, deny the existence of God, and that is why people will cling to it, some even after being presented with proof against it. (To use the same assumption Zak used, that proof would ever come forth.)

This "narrow mindedness" brought to you by: about 86 hours with 16 hours of sleep. Don't you just love LANs?

[Alex]

lol, Genesis 1:1, the 1st bit in the bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (NIV)... Sorry Eldren!

Almost all christians Ive spoken to about this think that to them it doesnt actually matter as such, all that matters is that God is in control and resposible for everything created, regardless of how he did it. Theres loads of science/religion debates and stuff, but most christians (myself included) think of science as the "how" and the "what", whereas the religion is the "who" and "why" of it all. Genesis 1 isnt necessarily to tell us how God created the world, more why he did it. At the end of the day why des it really matter how?

If someone proved evolution to me beyond doubt, then I would accept it, believe it, and it would have no effect on my faith. If someone proved that evolution didnt happen, Id accept that too. The one thing I dont get is people that say they believe in God, but do absolutely nothing to find out what God is like, and why he put us here! I guess we'll never understand everything...

[Agent]

Originally posted by ab1385
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

Who created god ?

[Alex]

Why does he need to be created? If you go more into physics, then time and matter are inseparable, when god made the heavens and the earth, he made time. He exists outside of time. If you think outside of how we exist, god hasnt existed for ever in the sense that we think of it, ie time extending eternally backward, as time did have a beginning, and God was before that, and will be after the end of time.

Whether you view it as God existing without beginning or matter existing without beginning, one must be true, as without God you cannot imagine something coming from nothing. I personally find it easier to believe that God exists outside of time than to believe that all the matter in this universe has existed for ever, and there was no beginning to time. Time without beginning just doesnt make sense to me!

Not only that, but if you go into looking at the entropy of the universe and the fact that all the energy in the universe is slowly dissipating until we reach the eventual state of "heat death" of the universe, then there must have been a beginning when all the energy of the universe was in a state of 100% "order" which in itself requires a beginning. I cant see myself how that works without God either. Im not suggesting that my views of God are all necessarily correct or infallible, but its the only way the world makes sense in my head!!

[Zak33]

Originally posted by ab1385
The one thing I dont get is people that say they believe in God, but do absolutely nothing to find out what God is like, and why he put us here!

I think I want to marry you dude

[Alex]

(Spam alert...)

[Rythmic]

I'll just start by saying I'm an agonistic (not an atheist - look up the difference).

I met a physicist during my degree (physics is next door to comp sci at reading) who was a devoted christian. He just thought that genesis was a way of explaining the process of creation to people who didn't have any concept of physics. I was fine with him, cause he didn't break the rule - don't try and impose your religion on me...

The idea of religions built in belief of "we're right - the other religions have it wrong" is always going to happen. Your religion won't last long if it says "We might be right, but these others might be too..."

Science is almost becoming a religion of it's own now - people tend to believe what scientists (the ones that get up on telly anyway) tell them, and even scientists themselves tend to cling onto existing theorys rather than except new ones, despite evidence (there are good reasons for this generally, but it can occasionally go too far - look at the way egyptian history was only recently recognised to be wrong, and was restructured).

Stephen hawking says in the front of Brief History that science just tries to model the universe mathematically - not explain it. Thats a good attitude to take.




Having said all that, people who can't accept Darwin are nuts

[Alex]

I assume you mean agnostic? lol!

Most religions that Ive spoken to people about think that most other religions have some truth in them as well. For example, Jews are waiting for the essiah to come, christians believe in everything they do, except that the messiah has come and changed history (a rather important except!) and muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet but not the son of God. Just an example.

Although these differences are obviously rather fundamental, it seems more than a little bit of a pity that these minor differences have been the cause of so much war and death over the centuries! Especially when all 3 of these religions try to promote understanding, love, and respect for life!

[spazman]

I think its quite clear that the world wasnt created in 7 days and anybody who belives it is is obviously crazy

[Alan]

It just demonstrates that fundamentalism in any walk of life is not a nice thing.

Darwin started it but didn't even get it half right. He was spot on about evolution though. The Theory of Evolution is probably the most examined, questioned, and inspected theory in science. SOme o fthe mechanism is in doubt but what is not in doubt is the concept of evolution itself. The Roman Catholic Church has accepted the Theory of Evolution for quite a long time.

It is fundamental Christian Churches which stick to literal truth of the Bible and their interpretation of the Good Book which cause the problems. Indeed, it isn't science that denies God, it is sciente that denies human interpretations (done for their own benefit). In the Middle Ages, lightning was God's wrath and lightning conductors was blasphemy in the extreme. Science said "no it's not". Science was not denying God, but the self appointed individuals who had set them up as arbiters of God's will and wishes - and thereby restricting God's omnipotence quite arrogantly.

The Moral Majority and fundamentalist Bible Belt Churces in the United States have, for years, been trying to ban the teaching of evolution and the supply of books in American schools. Where they can, Public Libraries no longer stock any texts on evolution and it is thought that a very large chunk of the American population actually believes in the Creationist version. Indeed, some recent American Presidents have also held the view.

That is SO frightening. The late Isaac Asimov referred to them as the Army of the Night and if they ever get their way on evolution, they will not stop there.

[eldren]

Can you say, propaganda? I want evolution out of schools, because it is taught as fact, not as a theory. People need to learn the difference.