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Thread: AMD - Zen chitchat

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    An awful lot of it seems to stem from this temperature obsession you see nowadays, with people totally ignoring designed temperature specifications of the components involved.

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    So what happens if the B650 Tomahawk comes out next year for AM4...
    I don't think that will be quite the same.

    My current predicament: Getting a B450 is fine for my needs now, but if I upgrade next year then I end up getting a B550 anyway at time of upgrade making the B450 an additional cost. This isn't helped that lots of B450 boards are low stock so inflated prices or not available, and the one uATX X570 board out there is more expensive than the bigger ATX board that won't fit that case.

    A B650 would have to live or die on its abilities, not its compatibility matrix which would be the same as B550.

    I was hoping to put that particular upgrade off until AM5 came out, but those construction cores are starting to chug

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    An awful lot of it seems to stem from this temperature obsession you see nowadays, with people totally ignoring designed temperature specifications of the components involved.
    Agreed,although a lot of the problems are due to poorly designed heatsinks,made for appearance.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    I don't think that will be quite the same.

    My current predicament: Getting a B450 is fine for my needs now, but if I upgrade next year then I end up getting a B550 anyway at time of upgrade making the B450 an additional cost. This isn't helped that lots of B450 boards are low stock so inflated prices or not available, and the one uATX X570 board out there is more expensive than the bigger ATX board that won't fit that case.

    A B650 would have to live or die on its abilities, not its compatibility matrix which would be the same as B550.

    I was hoping to put that particular upgrade off until AM5 came out, but those construction cores are starting to chug
    The problem is the logic they use to justify price increases. At this point,what is the point of the CPUs being cheaper,when you pay more and more for the motherboards??

    So that B550 now costs £180 instead of £100,and now say the Ryzen 7 4700X now costs £400 instead of £320 which the Ryzen 7 3700X cost at launch,but it's 20~30% faster so the price premium is worth it, because reviewers will only look at launch RRP instead of actual street prices. So in the end,you pay £580 at launch instead of £350 now.

    My viewpoint,I have a decent B450 motherboard,so will stay with it until DDR5,unless it's 5 years away or something like that.

    Edit!!

    Also my mate got a Ryzen 9 3900 and a B450 Tomahawk Max for just over £400. You can the same bundle with a X470 Gaming Pro Max for £430. So £170 for an overpriced B550 Mortar does not look great value. PCI-E 4.0 runs fine on the OEM B450 motherboards,so even that feature is artificial segmentation IMHO.

    Then in 2021/2022 you have a £260 B450(which has more features than a £190 B550),and now the Ryzen 7 5700X is 12 cores,and costs £450,but the reviewers says its great value as it has 50% more cores than the £400 Ryzen 7 4700X. So you end up paying £710 for a 700X series Ryzen setup. But years earlier you could have got a £430 Ryzen 9 3900 and an X470 motherboard combination. Also wait until AMD then also drops the stock coolers for more expensive SKUs like Intel does,so add another £50 for a 2022 "entry level" CPU cooler. So now its nearer £800. So within 3~4 years you effectively are doubling the pricing.

    Then at the entry level and mainstream level,things start to slowly stagnate.

    This is why the tech press justifying massive price inflation does not end well,and they are in their own echo chamber. They did it for 10 years with Intel and Nvidia.

    Enthusiasts will throw money at their hobby,it's only when you move out of that arena,you start to realise how much less you start getting over time,and why so many gaming rigs,etc are relatively potatoes. It's not only consoles which are"holding back" PC gaming,but it's also the fact pricing escalation is slowing things down for the entry level and mainstream.

    This is especially evident outside richer market such as the UK,where £100 here,£200 there can feel more like £200~£400 extra in other countries.

    Personally my viewpoint,I am not a charity(just as companies are not),the more they want to take the mickey with prices,the longer I will wait between upgrades,and do less frivalous ones. Plenty of older games to play,and the non-gaming stuff I run is fast enough on what I have currently. If I need to wait 10~20 minutes extra for a task to finish,then I can wait. However,I was on socket 1155 for around 6~7 years,so hardware reliability is going to be more my limitation.

    We will see how this all pans out.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 22-06-2020 at 08:07 PM.


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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Remember years ago, people thought motherboards were going to get cheaper because the Northbridge was effectively being moved on-die?

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Remember years ago, people thought motherboards were going to get cheaper because the Northbridge was effectively being moved on-die?
    Prices went up!!


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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Having PBO on does justify the different numbers, but doesn't justify him claiming that most B450 boards can't handle R9. I can also see a point to comparing launch prices, if we all don't buy B550 at the launch price then it'll come down pretty quick and he does mention that older boards did come down in price after launch.

    My view on the whole situation is that B550 came with a lot of really nice features being very common, and this is the cause for a fair amount of the price difference and makes them not bad options at the current prices. I'd like to see them cheaper, but who wouldn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Agreed,although a lot of the problems are due to poorly designed heatsinks,made for appearance.
    And reviewers who don't understand heatsink design (HU specifically say that one board's heatsinks are better because they're heavier, despite having less fins, at 4:30 ish). Surface area is what sheds the heat, you only need enough mass to get the heat out to the extremities and this is surprisingly thin for natural convection into air - generally for heat fluxes like this, the optimum thickness for best mass:effectiveness ratio is not really manufacturable as it's so thin. VRM heatsinks are going to get more cube like at this rate, adding to cost and board weight for not practical gain.

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    An awful lot of it seems to stem from this temperature obsession you see nowadays, with people totally ignoring designed temperature specifications of the components involved.
    It's not quite as simple as that - testing generally involves a thermocouple taped to the back of the board (good idea, means it can be calibrated and the MB manufacturer can't mess with the numbers) so the 150C rated components will be seeing higher temps

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Remember years ago, people thought motherboards were going to get cheaper because the Northbridge was effectively being moved on-die?
    That change also marked the end of actual competition for MB chipsets, when intel forced Nvidia out of the market as their licence didn't cover boards for SoCs

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    From what I gather,they were also using a radiator in the system,which recirculated some of the hot air back into the case. Since the stock coolers tend to be horizontally orientated,they are made to actively also cool the VRMs. So if he was to use an air cooler with decent airflow there would have been less of a problem.

    Also the B550 is just a ripoff. We very well know PCI-E 4.0 didn't need retimers and worked fine with a rebadged OEM B450. So I am uncertainly what useless features are being sold,when the B450 Mortar was £95 and the replacement is £160~£180,for a mATX motherboard.

    The problem is what happens when the better B650 Mortar is a £230~£250 motherboard and a locked A620 is £150? This is the problem with PC building now,ie,the Turing mentality. If you keep jacking up the price massively at each generation because it is better, a home PC would have been £100000 by now!

    They honestly must be thinking most enthusiasts and gamers are whales.

    I am struggling to see what the market for this is - X570 motherboards are a similar price,and for someone with a Ryzen 5 3600,what is the point?? £160 Ryzen 5 3600 and a £160~£180 motherboard,or £250 Ryzen 7 3700X and a £90 B450 motherboard?? Even by the time PCI-E 4.0 is important,a Ryzen 7 3700X system might last long enough for someone to skip Zen3.

    Honestly all of this puts me off bothering to do upgrades. So I am just going to bother less with upgrades,if companies want to increase pricing massively past inflation,exchange rates and pay increases for most people. I have better things to waste money on!
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 25-06-2020 at 12:43 AM.


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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by Xlucine View Post
    My view on the whole situation is that B550 came with a lot of really nice features being very common, and this is the cause for a fair amount of the price difference and makes them not bad options at the current prices. I'd like to see them cheaper, but who wouldn't?
    I'm pleasantly surprised by how many of the boards have 2.5G Ethernet. Now we just need multi-gigabit switches to start dropping in price!


    Quote Originally Posted by Xlucine View Post
    And reviewers who don't understand heatsink design
    Nor heatsink testing, but that's another story.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xlucine View Post
    It's not quite as simple as that - testing generally involves a thermocouple taped to the back of the board (good idea, means it can be calibrated and the MB manufacturer can't mess with the numbers) so the 150C rated components will be seeing higher temps
    That's not quite what I meant, I mean more along the lines of people obsessing over component temps and/or claiming x is worse than y because it reaches higher temperatures. Probably some crossover with those who don't know the difference between heat and temperature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xlucine View Post
    That change also marked the end of actual competition for MB chipsets, when intel forced Nvidia out of the market as their licence didn't cover boards for SoCs
    It's curious how many 'enthusiasts' seem to think Intel and Nvidia are best of friends, obviously with no knowledge of some of the battles between them over the years.

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by Xlucine View Post
    That change also marked the end of actual competition for MB chipsets, when intel forced Nvidia out of the market as their licence didn't cover boards for SoCs
    Don't forget Intel went for VIA's throat around the same time. VIA pretty much saved Intel's bacon during the rambus fiasco too, nice way to repay them.


    But I guess third party companies can't even make chipsets for AMD chips now after seeing how the AGAESA is used to lock down PCIe4 keyed from chipset type. They would have to be an A320 that just happened to have a lot of extra stuff bolted on.

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    It's curious how many 'enthusiasts' seem to think Intel and Nvidia are best of friends, obviously with no knowledge of some of the battles between them over the years.
    I know almost everyone does it, but be very careful personifying companies. Companies of the sizes we are talking here are never "friends" or "enemies" They are entities with huge numbers of employees each with individual motivations. It's not unusual for businesses to be fighting each other in court over one area whilst signing deals to do business in other areas.
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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Anyone know who kidnapped all the 450w-600w PSU from established brands.

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post

    Honestly all of this puts me off bothering to do upgrades. So I am just going to bother less with upgrades,if companies want to increase pricing massively past inflation,exchange rates and pay increases for most people. I have better things to waste money on!
    For a budget system I'd still go B450 even today (once PSU's become available).

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by pp05 View Post
    For a budget system I'd still go B450 even today (once PSU's become available).
    My main problem is what happens when the B450 sells out?? Will the B550 drop in price,or will AMD release the A520 which keeps the price high?? If I want a new PC in 2022~2024,how much will the B650 be?? We are already seeing overclocking being limited to £130+ Intel motherboards and the sub £150 ones are a bit rubbish! I find all this price escalation well above inflation unpalatable,especially when you look at what is happening now.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 25-06-2020 at 01:23 PM.


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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by pp05 View Post
    Anyone know who kidnapped all the 450w-600w PSU from established brands.
    Currys/PC World seemed the only ones who had stock last week.

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    My main problem is what happens when the B450 sells out?? Will the B550 drop in price,or will AMD release the A520 which keeps the price high?? If I want a new PC in 2022~2024,how much will the B650 be?? We are already seeing overclocking being limited to £130+ Intel motherboards and the sub £150 ones are a bit rubbish! I find all this price escalation well above inflation unpalatable,especially when you look at what is happening now.
    That should be a while, the B550 can't be used with older CPUs and APUs and there are still a ton of them in distribution. Some old CPUs will have long service guarantees that spares can be bought for corporate machines.

    I was pining the other day for the old AM1 platform to knock up some *really* cheap boxes. But frankly, an A320 board and Athlon 3000G isn't that much more. Unless you buy ITX of course, which these days has a totally mental premium attached to the form factor. I mean, £43 gets you a cheap A320 motherboard

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/MSI-A320M-P...dp/B07W838R4F/

    Or you can go ITX for £104, that's over twice the price for something not really any better just compressed a bit.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/ASUS-A320I-...dp/B07THL4C87/

    As an aside, in is interesting to see that with current street prices that MSI MAX board is 1p more expensive than the non MAX version, despite the full retail price being a few quid more. I wonder, is that because volume is favouring the large ROM board or is the overall market so "meh" about rom sizes they have to discount them to shift stock.

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    That should be a while, the B550 can't be used with older CPUs and APUs and there are still a ton of them in distribution. Some old CPUs will have long service guarantees that spares can be bought for corporate machines.

    I was pining the other day for the old AM1 platform to knock up some *really* cheap boxes. But frankly, an A320 board and Athlon 3000G isn't that much more. Unless you buy ITX of course, which these days has a totally mental premium attached to the form factor. I mean, £43 gets you a cheap A320 motherboard

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/MSI-A320M-P...dp/B07W838R4F/

    Or you can go ITX for £104, that's over twice the price for something not really any better just compressed a bit.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/ASUS-A320I-...dp/B07THL4C87/

    As an aside, in is interesting to see that with current street prices that MSI MAX board is 1p more expensive than the non MAX version, despite the full retail price being a few quid more. I wonder, is that because volume is favouring the large ROM board or is the overall market so "meh" about rom sizes they have to discount them to shift stock.
    The problem is the presidence it sets for later generations,ie,this is exactly what happened with Intel too. Personally the B550 looks too expensive for what it is.

    Also,there is a cheaper AM4 mini-ITX motherboard:
    https://www.ebuyer.com/951171-biosta...erboard-x470nh

    No Wifi,but it here is a review of the version which has Wifi:
    https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/86...iew/index.html

    But lower end Intel mini-ITX motherboards do appear to be generally cheaper than AM4 ones!


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