Far cry 2(bad news for pc)

[dangel]

I think what it boils down to is publishers are well within their rights to protect their products in any way they see fit. They have to protect their revenue or what's the point in making a game in the first place?

What right have any of us to crow on about DRM, limited installs, online registration and the like when we want to use someone else's product?

About as much right as you have to tell us we can't, frankly As for 'any way they see fit' - that's possibly one of the most questionable statements i've ever heard - of course they don't - but then I guess you're just shooting off rather than meaning it literally.

[doYdY]

protect revenue? pff its pathetic, its just their awful attempt at stopping piracy, and hurting/annoying your average buyer. at the end of the day, this game WILL be cracked and available DRM free within a few days of release, just like spore was.

[Zadock]

I format my pc about 4 times a year thats not good at all,Sometimes to make room i only install the games i feel like playing at the time.

Blimey! thats really not necessary, what do you keep doing to it to need to re-format that often?

Personally I don't really have a problem with DRM on games so long as the software doesn't infringe on my privacy in anyway. I suspect that this DRM will eventually go the way of Bioshock and become an unlimited install once they have at least made a decent profit on the game.

doYdY: why is it pathetic to protect revenue? the whole point of running a business is to make money. They obviously see DRM as a way to insure profitability, if you think its misguided your entitled to think so but I expect they have a sound business case for using it.

It might be more productive, rather than moaning or slagging them off, if we could suggest and alternative?

[dangel]

Far Cry 2 is available, right now, for the 360 via piracy.

Fall Out 3 is available, right now, for the 360 via piracy.

Both before release date. Neither (yet) for the PC.

[Nick]

So, as expected, it requires a fully clean un-install first.

Great consolation to all those who forgot, didn't even realise or didn't have a chance to.

Even though most will never hit the limit, the fact you can is enough to cause outrage.

A good analogy would be if the government imposed a "5 accusations and you go to jail" system. Most people won't get accused of 5 crimes in their life but that's no consolation to the poor guys who have been, yet never committed a single offence.

If your going to be treated like a criminal, you might as well have the pleasure of performing the criminal act.

Hi Shaithis,

Anyone got FarCry 2 yet? No. So why is it an issue if they didn't know/forgot/realise or whatever?

ie, It's not like they've suddenly thrown in the install limit AFTER the game is released, so you know what you're getting BEFORE you buy.

Your analogy kinda breaks down a bit because accusations and installs are different things (not just from the basic view of one being software, the other being a legal thing) the install is a definite, traceable act whereas an accusation is just an idea... and any party can make an accusation whereas this with FC2, it's solely between you and Ubi.

I'm honestly having trouble seeing what the actual problem is. Outside of house fires, lightening strikes and other events beyond someone's control, why is this system unfair?

Who is to blame if you forget to uninstall properly and get a revoke? Not really anyone's fault but yours, is it?

Sure, you can say that Ubi not putting the limit on there would help but they have to try and protect the product they've invested in.

So how can you let them know you're unhappy? Simple, don't buy it.

And that's where I think the anger is coming from for many people... in that they want to play FC2 but hate the idea of limited/logged installs...

Well the alternative is a DRM, security-free game which will be torrented all over the web and make bugger all money.... meaning no money for another game meaning no games to play.

Ok, maybe a bit of an overstatement but until someone comes up with a sensible alternative that makes commercial sense, we're stuck with these kind of security measures.

[Digerati]

Well the alternative is a DRM, security-free game which will be torrented all over the web and make bugger all money.... meaning no money for another game meaning no games to play.
.

Not that I'm disagreeing with what you just said but this is the only part of the DRM I don't get. Mainly because it will be hacked, cracked and distributed across the net regardless of the DRM. So why put such security in place when its hardly a deterant or fool proof?

[jem]

So why put such security in place when its hardly a deterant or fool proof?

Nothing is ever that,If there is a code for something there will allways be a code for cracking

[shaithis]

ie, It's not like they've suddenly thrown in the install limit AFTER the game is released, so you know what you're getting BEFORE you buy.

I do, mainly because of the forums I frequent. What about other "not so savvy" purchasers?

Your analogy kinda breaks down a bit because accusations and installs are different things (not just from the basic view of one being software, the other being a legal thing) the install is a definite, traceable act whereas an accusation is just an idea... and any party can make an accusation whereas this with FC2, it's solely between you and Ubi.

It is a good analogy! If I have had a hard drive fail or formatted after forgetting to un-install first, they will effectively give me a strike (1 less install available). I haven't done anything wrong, I haven't pirated anything, I haven't installed the game on someone else's PC....Yet I am being treated as if I did. It is a baseless accusation with no way for me to refute it.

I'm honestly having trouble seeing what the actual problem is. Outside of house fires, lightening strikes and other events beyond someone's control, why is this system unfair?

Who is to blame if you forget to uninstall properly and get a revoke? Not really anyone's fault but yours, is it?

How about UBI for forcing a practice on us that since the first day I have had a PC, I haven't had to consider? My first PC was a "top of the line" 286, to give you an idea of how long I have been using the things. I've never been given install limits until now. That's like breaking a habit of a lifetime......but that's my fault?

So how can you let them know you're unhappy? Simple, don't buy it.

Indeed.....or the alternative that-we-can't-even-mention-here.

And that's where I think the anger is coming from for many people... in that they want to play FC2 but hate the idea of limited/logged installs...

*DING DING* we have a winner.

Well the alternative is a DRM, security-free game which will be torrented all over the web and make bugger all money.... meaning no money for another game meaning no games to play.

Goes both ways. Adding DRM can force potential purchasers to pirate the game......Which makes a complete mockery of why its there in the first place. This will only get worse as more and more gamers become DRM-savvy and start investigating ways to get the software DRM-free.

Ok, maybe a bit of an overstatement but until someone comes up with a sensible alternative that makes commercial sense, we're stuck with these kind of security measures.

Commercial sense? You cannot stop piracy. How many more years of games being available already cracked, before their release date will it take before people realise this? We can go back to Robocop on the ZX Spectrum to show how well copy protection works!
Commercial sense would be to drop DRM now before "the masses" realise what's happening and start looking for alternative ways to acquire the games, opening the door to a slew of new pirates, many without morales that will pirate everything and anything without question.

They just need to accept it and hope that games sell on their merits. They want to ensure that every POTENTIAL purchaser has no reason to even look for a "DRM-free version"

[j.o.s.h.1408]

And that's where I think the anger is coming from for many people... in that they want to play FC2 but hate the idea of limited/logged installs...

*DING DING* we have a winner.

definetly a winner there

[mat-ster]

OK Calm down, Calm down!

I think we all agree:-
Good games should have hassle free installation, play, uninstallation and online access.....

Why not have a PC game that can be installed but uses an "authenticator" key?
This method has been used through out business for access to online and database systems for years - why because it works, they are cheap - hackers and pirates hate them with a passion!!

If I think a game will be good I am "happy" to pay for it...the growing market for deluxe versions of games is increasing I like the book, artwork not just the game etc. http://www.play.com/Games/PC/4-/5483...n/Product.html

I suspect more games will use this to manage "authenticity" in the future rather than relying on pointless hoops (removed by pirates) to jump through before you play the game.

http://www.aladdin.com/safeword/authenticators.aspx

http://eu.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=221003132

This would take advantage of the PC's flexibility over the console Yes this is a bit of hassle (5 sec) when you want to play, but a hardware authentication process would really scupper the pirates, hey you could even bundle it with a USB memory stick with extra game features on it..

[Nick]

I do, mainly because of the forums I frequent. What about other "not so savvy" purchasers?

They won't care about the install limit... they'll just accept it. Just as you have to accept paying out £160 if you don't own an Xbox 360 but want to play Halo 3... just as you accept that booking cinema tickets incurs a £2.50 booking fee or that you have to have a passport to travel abroad... that's just the way it is, either accept it or don't do it.

It is a good analogy! If I have had a hard drive fail or formatted after forgetting to un-install first, they will effectively give me a strike (1 less install available). I haven't done anything wrong, I haven't pirated anything, I haven't installed the game on someone else's PC....Yet I am being treated as if I did. It is a baseless accusation with no way for me to refute it.

Yes there is. You can call them. Ok, so that might cost you but nothing is free these days. Replacing a busted drive will cost you. Even taken a faulty drive back to the shop will cost you in travel and parking and I bet you'll NEVER get that refunded... so it's comparatively no more expensive.

How about UBI for forcing a practice on us that since the first day I have had a PC, I haven't had to consider? My first PC was a "top of the line" 286, to give you an idea of how long I have been using the things. I've never been given install limits until now. That's like breaking a habit of a lifetime......but that's my fault?

I'm legally not entitled to smoke indoors in a pub. That's like breaking a habit of a lifetime......but that's my fault?

Goes both ways. Adding DRM can force potential purchasers to pirate the game......Which makes a complete mockery of why its there in the first place. This will only get worse as more and more gamers become DRM-savvy and start investigating ways to get the software DRM-free.

Yep, which is why more and more 'restrictive' copy protection will be used on popular titles. It's an arms race in which ultimately the PC gamer will lose as publishers give up bothering with the PC altogether. Yes, you can run pirated stuff on consoles, but it needs a hardware mod to do so, which is a deterrent to a lot of people... So for the sake of a bit of DRM, we lose the home of the shooter, the mouse and keyboard.

Commercial sense? You cannot stop piracy.

So if I'm making a game and invest perhaps millions into it, can you blame me for trying to protect my investment?

How many more years of games being available already cracked, before their release date will it take before people realise this? We can go back to Robocop on the ZX Spectrum to show how well copy protection works!

Well, I reckon not too many and perhaps that day is here now? I don't think it'll be long at all before retail boxed copies half only perhaps the level build on the disk and the game engine has to be downloaded on install and then validated for each level load. Sounds awful doesn't it? But that's where we're heading for PC gaming.

Commercial sense would be to drop DRM now before "the masses" realise what's happening and start looking for alternative ways to acquire the games, opening the door to a slew of new pirates, many without morales that will pirate everything and anything without question.

And you've just defeated your own statement there. More DRM = more pirates... but surely less DRM means more people won't have to bother trying to crack it and will upload it for pirating anyway...

And sorry, but at the risk of sounding rude, that's just naive. Look at the number of iPod users... look at the success of iTunes store. That stuff is DRMd to the hilt and superbly successful... I honestly don't think 'the masses' care nearly as much as you think they do, even when they do know all about it.

They just need to accept it and hope that games sell on their merits. They want to ensure that every POTENTIAL purchaser has no reason to even look for a "DRM-free version"

No, a game that sells on it's merits, ie, is good, is gonna get pirated far more than some CCC title from a tiny dev house based in Latvia.

It's the popular games that get pirated.

It's got sod all to do with self-righteous gamers wanting to be 'free with what they do with their software'... that's all bull and bluster to cover up the the REAL reason, which is that everyone wants something for nothing.

Software piracy, no matter what the software, appears to be a victimless crime... you're not 'stealing' anything physical... it's just a bit of space on your hard drive. You didn't have to sneak out of HMV with it under your arm, you were watching Coronation Street and drinking a cuppa as the torrent completed.

It's basic human nature to try and get one over on someone and that's all piracy is... theft driven the masses desire to get something for nothing with very little risk or consequence.

And before anyone rolls out the 'games are too expensive' argument, it's simple: don't buy them, get a cheaper hobby.

[Digerati]

Nothing is ever that,If there is a code for something there will allways be a code for cracking

Ok fair point. Maybe 'fool proof' was a bit too strong but it still does seem that the draconian security being put in place is effecting the legit customers far far more then it is effecting pirates, who ironicly are the target users.

[shaithis]

It's got sod all to do with self-righteous gamers wanting to be 'free with what they do with their software'... that's all bull and bluster to cover up the the REAL reason, which is that everyone wants something for nothing.

Well, I guess that's told me, thanks for calling me a thief and a lier.

For someone which such high values, you certainly can throw the baseless insults around when you want to! I am having to refrain here as posting what I want to say to you right now would get me banned!

I guess you'll be wanting me to post pictures of my DRMed games next? Perhaps I should post them anyway and demand an apology from you?

Not wanting DRM does in no way AT ALL mean we want the game free. WE WANT THEM FREE OF DRM. As I said earlier, where does this end? Rootkits on all games.. NO THANK YOU.

[Nick]

Well, I guess that's told me, thanks for calling me a thief and a lier.

For someone which such high values, you certainly can throw the baseless insults around when you want to! I am having to refrain here as posting what I want to say to you right now would get me banned!

I guess you'll be wanting me to post pictures of my DRMed games next? Perhaps I should post them anyway and demand an apology from you?

Not wanting DRM does in no way AT ALL mean we want the game free. WE WANT THEM FREE OF DRM. As I said earlier, where does this end? Rootkits on all games.. NO THANK YOU.

Oh jeez, that's not what I meant!

I wasn't insulting you and I apologise if I did.

What I meant was that piracy is purely driven by the want to have something for nothing... and pirates then claim freedom of use etc as the reason for cracking games.

Sorry. I most certainly wasn't aiming that comment at you and I once again apologise if I came over like that, which I obviously did.

Please don't refrain from posting, cos I thought we were having a good, constructive argument.

[j.o.s.h.1408]

Not wanting DRM does in no way AT ALL mean we want the game free. .

Is that what Nick actualy said? that people who dont want DRM want a free game?

[shaithis]

Oh jeez, that's not what I meant!

I wasn't insulting you and I apologise if I did.

What I meant was that piracy is purely driven by the want to have something for nothing... and pirates then claim freedom of use etc as the reason for cracking games.

Sorry. I most certainly wasn't aiming that comment at you and I once again apologise if I came over like that, which I obviously did.

Please don't refrain from posting, cos I thought we were having a good, constructive argument.

It does definitely read as "all people who don't want DRM are pirates", if that's not what you meant, then fair enough....but that is the whole point you are trying to push across...you seem to have the opinion that DRM is fine and completely harmless....and that the only people who hate it are those who are up to something and find it convenient to hide behind the DRM argument.

What you seem to want to ignore, is that there are plenty of people who obviously have completely different practices on how they use their PC then you do. Thus, this can be a great inconvenience to a lot of people and that's before we start to consider that this DRM is the merest tip of the iceberg, how long before they start doing more then tracking how many installs? We have already seen Sony do it with music CDs, how long before games publishers feel they are justified to do the same......especially when so few people are complaining about the current DRM they are employing?

Also, do you not think that if games stopped being released on PC and developers only wrote for the consoles, that the amount of console mods wouldn't sky-rocket overnight?

If people are set on getting a game for free, you basically cannot stop them. All that stopping PC development would do, is take even more money out of the industry as more money gets spent on "sold at a loss" console hardware.