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Spear with Atlatl wins...
Very true!Originally Posted by ibm
All's well and good unless you have something like 70+ of these 'pleb level' knights closing with your 50 peasants at speed (let's say they're mounted.) Depending on distance, armoured cavalry could be in amongst them before they get a shot off or after one. There is, however, a theory they were operated in pairs with a loader and a shooter, a bit like a modern bird-shooting set up. So maybe they were a bit quicker. The other fly in the ointment would be if you had some more upwardly mobile peasants on the other side with war bows shooting at you whilst you're trying to do in the knights. Not easy to look up and shoot when it's raining arrows!So I give you fifty peasants with crossbows to take out the pleb level knights, then drag the generals off their horses and beat them to death with the butt of the crossbow.
The beating to death with crossbow butts, well, a man with good armour is just going to get annoyed at that rather than hurt. My money's still on the knights!
My pleasure, this is my pet subject (my PhD) so I can bore for Britain on the subject (as you've probably noticed!)I hadn't really drawn a comparison between crossbows and firearms previously, so that was quite a nice little summation. Ta.
I would go for the pack of rabid hungry dogs. Just so I can shout 'release the hounds!'
I always thought that arbalests could puncture the heaviest armour. Still, against multiple un-armoured targets, the repeating crossbow or the katana would fare far better.
Plus even the toughest armours have weak spots right? Anything that goes through the visor for one should 'incapacitate' a knight. Granted, an armoured cavalry probably won't normally stand still, but any who get knocked down from their horse (I'd imagine that a bolt could do it) probably won't jump right back on their feet in an instant. A near point-blank shot in the weaker part of the armour knock them out (if not skewer). Another thing I wonder is, if a armoured knight falls around other charging knights, wouldn't they run the risk of being stamped on (or did knights have particular techniques they could use to avoid such occurrences)?
Anyway, different ways for different purpose. Here's one for fans of poll weapons: Pollaxe vs Naginata vs Guan Dao
Certainly you could get very high-powered crossbows during the later middle ages but the performance against armour is harder to judge. My period of interest is the 15th century so plate armour was reaching its apogee and the indications are it was pretty good against most things.
Repeating crossbows (limited to Asia, particularly China to the best of my knowledge) were of a much lower power as a rule (they had to be so they could work quickly.) The big, powerful arbalests needed assistance for cranking (windlass, cranequin) which is why they were slower to use. The really powerful ones tended to be what's known as wall bows - that's to say they were mounted on walls to be used in siege scenarios. I love katanas but honestly I think against unarmoured targets you could use just about any mainstream weapon equally effectively. A weapon's construction is important but far more vital is the person using it, of course.
Definitely any armour would have weak spots (joints and openings were often targetted, you could try to crush articulations and the like or jab for an armpit or opening.) Getting something through a visor would definitely spoil someone's day (supposedly it was a technique used by the English archers at Agincourt to despatch fallen French knights and later in the battle in a controversial massacre/killing of French prisoners.) However it's probably easier to stick a knife into a visor of a fallen, winded or incapacitated man-at-arms than it is trying to get a bolt or an arrow into there or another type of weapon, especially if the other fella's trying to injure you back at the time. (Interestingly, there are a number of accounts of men being shot in the face when they opened their visors during the Wars of the Roses.) Medieval war saddles were quite high and designed to keep the rider in the saddle - combined with the straight-leg riding style of the time they were probably quite hard to dismount. One technique in mounted close combat was to try to spill your opponent out of the saddle from the side; again, it sounds easier on paper than in practice.Plus even the toughest armours have weak spots right? Anything that goes through the visor for one should 'incapacitate' a knight. Granted, an armoured cavalry probably won't normally stand still, but any who get knocked down from their horse (I'd imagine that a bolt could do it) probably won't jump right back on their feet in an instant. A near point-blank shot in the weaker part of the armour knock them out (if not skewer).
An armoured man, knocked from his saddle was probably quite mobile and unless the fall winded or injured him he'd be back on his feet fairly quickly, I reckon. Don't forget in a battle situation you're already fired up on adrenaline.
Impacts on armour are hard to judge. There's a theory the fluted 'Gothic' armour developed so many ridges to deflect crossbows. However, it also allowed thinner (and thus lighter) plates to be used as it strengthened the plates. I've worn armour and been hit full tilt with a poll weapon and the impact wasn't anywhere near as bad as I anticipated. Most armour was used with fabric padding of course (and some armours were entirely fabric and worked pretty well too) so it absorbs impact on the surface (which is designed to turn points and edges, of course.)
Definitely a risk of being trampled, particularly in a melee. Horses tend to try to avoid stepping on things though and cavalry usually charged in lines. If your fallen knight was lucky enough he would possibly have been rescued by his comrades or support team and a new mount brought up quickly for him (again, that's an idealised scenario.) They quite possibly did have techniques for this kind of thing but most of it has been lost, it's only comparatively recently that the concept of European medieval martial arts has been recognised.Another thing I wonder is, if a armoured knight falls around other charging knights, wouldn't they run the risk of being stamped on (or did knights have particular techniques they could use to avoid such occurrences)?
I'm not familiar with the last two (being only marginally interest in Japanese warfare/culture) but I still like my pollaxe, ta!Anyway, different ways for different purpose. Here's one for fans of poll weapons: Pollaxe vs Naginata vs Guan Dao
Hehe, Katana aside (which has a fairly universal charm - even though it's not designed to deal against plate armour - and I can just see the blade being ruined), I have a bit of a soft spot for chain/string weaponry (e.g. the Kusarigama, or the Meteor Hammer used by Go Go Yubari in Kill Bill). They are most likely not suitable for use in armies as it requires too much space to swing around and lack the control of poll arms. Not only that but I also wonder if they are as effective in duels as I'd like to imagine given that I can't name any really famous practitioners. Perhaps they are just too complicated to handle, but the Kusarigama could technically serve as a bludgeoning weapon with the 'ball end', while maintaining to option to slash and stab.
two big sticks, about the size of a rounders bat - with one maybe about three inches longer - bring the pain
Yay another stick man
First off
Cannons were in use in the 14th century, well done pollaxe (not that I was there of course), and were used by the English (led by King Richard the ?th I believe) when they attacked France in opposition to King Philip.
I think my preferred weapon would be a falchion - half cleaver thingy, half sword, bloody heavy, very powerful. Failing that, a longbow
Another interesting one is caltrops...leave them all over the place (obviously enemies must have short range weapons...) and take them out with a big pole (spear perhaps) or ranged weapon
Or have no feeling whatsoever in your feet
[EDIT:] didn't realise the thread was so long, only read the first 40 posts! If my views have already been expressed, then i agree with the person that made them
Last edited by JK Ferret; 18-01-2008 at 01:57 AM.
Yay another stick man
complete with 2"
Longbow is pretty nice. Can't remember off hand (without googling for the dates) but I've always thought that the samurai sword was pretty cool. The technology/metallurgy/craftmanship involved is astounding considering the knowledge these people had. I've got the book "The knight and the blast furnace" on order, which details the metallurgical development of amour during the medieval period.
I've also got a friend who's a blacksmith by trade and it's great when his practical and my "theoretical" knowledge combine. We(HE) made some wicked bodkin heads using his skill and then fine tuned the properties after I had a few to analyse in the lab.
Even with the most basic forge and metal you can make some really good quality knives/weapons if you want to learn.
I don't think there is ever a "best weapon" in a given period simply because weapons are designed for different types of combat so you'll always need a different weapon for ranged/close combat to counteract the different threats whether they be mounted armoured knights, tanks or infantry etc.
"Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be." Frank Zappa. ----------- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." Huang Po.----------- "A drowsy line of wasted time bathes my open mind", - Ride.
Yep, the much beloved katana was a highly-evolved piece of metalwork though I'm sure there were good ones and bad ones around during the period just as in Europe. As I've mentioned before they've found evidence of carbon nanotubes and nanowires in one Damascus steel sword (although it's a 17th-century one that they examined though the technique/process was 11th century in origin IIRC) so there were certainly some clever people around.
Not being a metallurgist some of the technical details elude me but I've heard from several sources that the finest examples of medieval European steel are found in arrowheads. I've heard interesting speculation about quenching and case-hardening techniques with them - the ideal being to keep the socket fairly 'soft' but keep the point as hard as possible. IIRC they made significant progress with the blast furnace (and carburising techniques) in Germany during the 15th century. Henry VIII certainly imported German armourers during the 16th century.
One of the things about medieval practices is that the guilds and crafts kept their 'mysteries' (trade secrets) closely protected so much of what they did has been lost. This is especially tricky but also because it was before the days of mass production (of course) there were many localised methods and processes which are entirely unknown.
Blimey, when I started this thread I never expected this level of enthusiasm.
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Yes you cried havoc and let slip the anoraks of war!
seemed to be the only thread anyone was posting in at one point
Vodka
Oh dear...Yes you cried havoc and let slip the anoraks of war!
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