Fuddam, A Few Moments Of Your Time Please.

[Stewart]

Right, so lets say I wake up tomorrow morning and I have one of those epiphany things, lets say I wake up and decide that its all true, God made the Earth, Adam and Steve, the cake and the apple, all that. Its all gospel.

So the next logical step would be to sit down with a copy of the Bible, and read it cover to cover, to take in the knowledge, laws, customs, wisdom and all that jazz of the Christian faith.

The Bible is, after all, the infallible word of God, passed down to whoever he passed it down to, so his word could be spread, like utterly butterly, across the giant crumpet that is Gods green Earth.

With me so far?

So, I read it, cover to cover, hanging on every word as the direct word of God. When I get to the last page, the 'also by the same author' stuff, I would have to draw 2 conclusions: (I wouldn't draw on the pages though, I'm not a philistine)

Firstly, there are pretty much no Christians in the world.

Secondly, it is completely impossible to be a Christian in 2008 anywhere in the world, specifically in the Western world.

See, the way I see it is that 2000 odd years ago, you could be a Christian, you could follow the teachings of the Bible, word for word. You could do what you are supposed to do to men who lie with fellow men, and do what you are told to do to people who wear clothes made from 2 different cloths. You could do all the horrible, but it would seem neccesary deeds God has told you must be done. You could smite, whatever that means, none believers and double smite those who worship false idols.

Now I'm far too ignorant of the Bible to go into many specifics, but the Bible can not evolve as society does, so as the teachings of God and the way most people live their lives become more and more distant and alien from one another, it becomes harder and harder to be a member of modern society and remain a good, honest God fearing Christian.

What can God comment on the rise of the Internet, or how to balance the fact that you could probably get away with daming non believers back in the day, but no more? He gave us all free will, we use that free will to evolve more sophisticated social norms, those norms move futher away from his teachings, and, in the fullness of time, overrule them.

As I said, I don't know enough to go into specifics, but there is passage after passage in the bible that make it very clear you should do things you are simply not allowed to do, say things you are not allowed to say, and teach things you are not allowed to teach. A true Christian, today, is an extremeist, a homophobe, someone who has the moral outlook of a man from a completely different age, because you only have one guide, and its 2000 years old, never to be updated or edited.

Our laws now sit above his. And Christian or not, you have no choice but to follow the laws laid down by man. If that man is a Christian, an athiest, or whatever.

Try doing half of what God has told you must be done today, in modern society, and you'd be doing 25 years in prison before you could say hail Mithras.

Gods teachings, or some of them at least, now have to be ignored or conveniently overlooked, because they are completely at odds with man made laws, and modern society. So what you are left with are watered down, sanitized Christians, who are Christian up to the point society allows them to be.

Any time the word of God comes into conflict with the expected standards of modern society, man made laws have to take preference, Gods word goes out of the window. Now, unless God is planning on releasing the Bible part 2, or at least crossing some bits out, and unless someone can point out to me the bit in the bible where God sayeth unto man 'and by the way, if in 2000 years some of this stuff seems a bit crazy, feel free to ignore me', then the Bible is the word of God just as much today as it was when it was created.

So where are the Christians? If noone is allowed to live their lives according to the exact word of God any more, and anyone preaching some of the more controversial parts of the Bible would be safely under lock and key after a while, there are no Christians.

If there were, they would be very small in number, and underground (not literally you understand), not sitting in Church in their millions, or standing in St Peters square listening to the Pope. These people are the fair weather Christians – we follow the word of God... apart from the parts that leave a bad taste in the mouths of today's PC society.

Have you heard of that family in America, the really hardcore Christian ones, from the Westboro Baptist Church, they preach all this anti-gay, anti-everything stuff, and they are completely insane... but are they the real Christians? Aren't they the ones who put Gods message first, and then fit man made laws and customs around that, and **** what everyone else thinks, while the vast majority have to fit what's left of their Christianity lite around man made laws?

See, they are a small, underground group of nutters, preaching irrational hatred of various groups, but as I said, if I sat down and read the Bible, taking it as the word of God, isn't their final interpretation closer than the mainstream one, because they are simply following the teachings word for word, not glossing over the unsavoury bits as the rest of you have to?

The Bible makes it clear that a true Christian wouldn't be a very nice person by the standards we live by today, of course not, this is a way of living that is 2000 years old.

So Christianity, in the only form that counts, the version that's there in black and white in the bible, is all but dead. Take out all the bits you simply aren't allowed to follow any more and its 'try to be a good person'. I could have said that. I could have wrote it on the back of a cigarette packet.

So, is mainstream, modern Christianity, with its gay Bishops and middle class do-gooders picking and choosing which parts of Gods will are to be adheared to and which discarded, a perversion of true Christianity, because its either that or nothing?

Please excuse my ignorance on all things religious. Not intending to have a go, but you are clearly a man of genuine faith, and I'd be interested to hear what you have to say.

And anyone else of course.

Finally, I'm posting this because its a conclusion I have arrived at, and if possible would like this thread to not end up in the thermo-nuclear warfare that religious thread on HEXUS tend to do.

I know we can do it people.

[G4Z]

/me takes up seat ringside...


*ding ding*

[Steve B]

in true engadget style, and before this thread becomes infinitely long, let me be the person to say:

2nd reply!!!

damn you kalniel...

[Splash]

Tldr?

[Steve B]

and so it begins....

[fuddam]

hehehe. Interesting post, Stewart. A reasonable question, IMHO.

Well, I will reply, but has to be later, prob tonight. Gotta dash off quick-quick

[Stewart]

Yeah no problems mate. Because of whats happened in these threads before, I tried (and I really did, no bollocks) to keep this polite. This is a genuine question that has arrisen because of a conclusion I have come to, not an attack.

Take your time...

[Saracen]

Do we need yet another thread asking the same thing again? This has come up in threads in Question Time already.

If you want to discuss something with Fuddam then PM him. No need to carry out an arguement in public unless you are genuinely interested in open debate about something, in which case there's no need to address this topic to any individual (and then put in it the wrong hexus section).

Do we need one? Maybe not.

Is it a legitimate thread? Yes.

Are people other than Stewart and Fuddam likely to join in? Yes. At some point, probably me, for a start. Or I may just watch with interest.

This does not need to be an "argument", either. Unless I miss my guess, it's addressed to Fuddam because of a comment made in another thread .... to which I responded. But, to be fair, it was rather off-topic in that thread.

Let's have a thread about the OPs questions, rather than a thread about whether there should be a thread or not, please.

So, G4Z ... can you scrunch over a bit, because I want to see how this develops too and you're currently hogging the front row a bit.

[Moby-Dick]

thread cleaned. keep it on topic please.

[kalniel]

So, I read it, cover to cover, hanging on every word as the direct word of God. When I get to the last page, the 'also by the same author' stuff, I would have to draw 2 conclusions: (I wouldn't draw on the pages though, I'm not a philistine)

Firstly, there are pretty much no Christians in the world.

Secondly, it is completely impossible to be a Christian in 2008 anywhere in the world, specifically in the Western world.

See, the way I see it is that 2000 odd years ago, you could be a Christian, you could follow the teachings of the Bible, word for word.

Aren't you missing the point that Christians recognise that the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally word for word?

You could do what you are supposed to do to men who lie with fellow men, and do what you are told to do to people who wear clothes made from 2 different cloths. You could do all the horrible, but it would seem neccesary deeds God has told you must be done. You could smite, whatever that means, none believers and double smite those who worship false idols.

You've been reading a different Bible to me

Now I'm far too ignorant of the Bible to go into many specifics, but the Bible can not evolve as society does, so as the teachings of God and the way most people live their lives become more and more distant and alien from one another, it becomes harder and harder to be a member of modern society and remain a good, honest God fearing Christian.

I disagree - if anything I think the teachings of Christianity are more relevant to today than previous ages - at least, they have more solutions to offer us. As a practising Christian I feel fully a part of modern society.

What can God comment on the rise of the Internet, or how to balance the fact that you could probably get away with daming non believers back in the day, but no more?

For starters Christians were never called to damn non-believers - not 'back in the day', not now. As for the rise of the internet, well Christianity holds as much guidance for that as it does any other technology or social phenomena - in fact I think God is rather pleased that society has engineered itself yet more ways of greater communication, discussions, ability to make society more encompassing and inclusive and so on. The internet is a Good Thing, and when used for the right reasons (concern for other people above yourself) much Good can be enabled with it.

He gave us all free will, we use that free will to evolve more sophisticated social norms

Absolutely.

those norms move futher away from his teachings, and, in the fullness of time, overrule them.

That doesn't follow. If Christianity shunned discussion and openness then perhaps that would be the case, but it doesn't - it welcomes them.

As I said, I don't know enough to go into specifics, but there is passage after passage in the bible that make it very clear you should do things you are simply not allowed to do, say things you are not allowed to say, and teach things you are not allowed to teach.

I know you said you don't know specifics, but it sounds like you don't really know basics or the general idea. There are no things you are simply not allowed to do. No things you are not allowed to say. No things you are not allowed to teach.

A true Christian, today, is an extremeist, a homophobe, someone who has the moral outlook of a man from a completely different age, because you only have one guide, and its 2000 years old, never to be updated or edited.

That's just not true at all.

Our laws now sit above his. And Christian or not, you have no choice but to follow the laws laid down by man. If that man is a Christian, an athiest, or whatever.

Try doing half of what God has told you must be done today, in modern society, and you'd be doing 25 years in prison before you could say hail Mithras.

I try and live every day by what God has told me must be done - I have only ever recieved compliments for doing so. I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding what it means to be a Christian - which is really very simple. The two main things a Christian is asked to do are this: Love God, Love your neighbour. That's it.

Gods teachings, or some of them at least, now have to be ignored or conveniently overlooked, because they are completely at odds with man made laws, and modern society.

How are the laws I just mentioned at odds with that?

So what you are left with are watered down, sanitized Christians, who are Christian up to the point society allows them to be.

Maybe that's who you think I am then, because I follow Gods teachings rather than your interpretation of them.

Any time the word of God comes into conflict with the expected standards of modern society, man made laws have to take preference, Gods word goes out of the window. Now, unless God is planning on releasing the Bible part 2, or at least crossing some bits out, and unless someone can point out to me the bit in the bible where God sayeth unto man 'and by the way, if in 2000 years some of this stuff seems a bit crazy, feel free to ignore me', then the Bible is the word of God just as much today as it was when it was created.

I can't imagine a time when thinking about your neighbour is going to seem crazy.

So where are the Christians? If noone is allowed to live their lives according to the exact word of God any more, and anyone preaching some of the more controversial parts of the Bible would be safely under lock and key after a while, there are no Christians.

Conversely, because we are 'allowed' to live our lives fully according to the word of God there are plenty of us

If there were, they would be very small in number, and underground (not literally you understand), not sitting in Church in their millions, or standing in St Peters square listening to the Pope. These people are the fair weather Christians – we follow the word of God... apart from the parts that leave a bad taste in the mouths of today's PC society.

And here I think we're back to the same issue as in a different thread - you have to insist on labelling Christians with your own inaccurate criteria. You refuse to accept practising Christians as being Christian and instead you have invented your own Religion which you are calling Chrisitian and then holding up everyone else who follows true Christianity and saying 'but you're not *my* type of Christian.

Have you heard of that family in America, the really hardcore Christian ones, from the Westboro Baptist Church, they preach all this anti-gay, anti-everything stuff, and they are completely insane... but are they the real Christians? Aren't they the ones who put Gods message first, and then fit man made laws and customs around that, and **** what everyone else thinks, while the vast majority have to fit what's left of their Christianity lite around man made laws?

In my view (and the vast majority of Christians) no - they don't represent Christianity at all.

See, they are a small, underground group of nutters, preaching irrational hatred of various groups, but as I said, if I sat down and read the Bible, taking it as the word of God, isn't their final interpretation closer than the mainstream one, because they are simply following the teachings word for word, not glossing over the unsavoury bits as the rest of you have to?

Not at all - in fact they appear to be the ones skipping Gods message.

The Bible makes it clear that a true Christian wouldn't be a very nice person by the standards we live by today, of course not, this is a way of living that is 2000 years old.

Not true - the Bible makes it clear a true Christian is a person of love.

So Christianity, in the only form that counts

ah.. counts to who? You perhaps.

So, is mainstream, modern Christianity, with its gay Bishops and middle class do-gooders picking and choosing which parts of Gods will are to be adheared to and which discarded, a perversion of true Christianity, because its either that or nothing?

If you are substituting 'true Christianity' for 'Stewart's Made Up Religion' then sure.

Please excuse my ignorance on all things religious. Not intending to have a go, but you are clearly a man of genuine faith, and I'd be interested to hear what you have to say.

And anyone else of course.

You're welcome, but as you yourself claim ignorance on things religious please don't take it upon yourself to redefine Chrisitianity into something it's not. If you want to discuss the merits of some other theoretical religion then cool, or if you want to ask whether those things are part of Chrisitainity then cool as well, but please don't just assume that Chrisitanity is what you seem to think it is.

Cheers,

[Stewart]

Aren't you missing the point that Christians recognise that the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally word for word?

I realise this thread will turn into a monster, most probably, and I will (try to) answer your reply, but I want to aim another volley at Fuddy first.

On this point though, and with all due respect, who are you to decide which of Gods teachings to take as litteral, and which not to? If you could do this, it would make you a profit. Thats a bold claim indeed, me old cocker.

'And the Lord sayeth unto Kalniel - that snake couldn't really talk... keep it under your hat... the revelation that is, not the snake'

Secondly, and in the same area, you are qualified to speak on behalf on all Christians on this matter because...

You read, you follow. The omnipotent creator of the universe, the human race, and all matter lays down his teachings, you come along 2000 years later and go 'yeah... page 6, all true, page 19... just a nice story'

You sir, have serious delusions of granduer.

Also, if you are a good, honest, God fearing Christian, cutting the legs away from your holy book, in the shape of 'don't take it all that seriously' is hardly going to get you fast tracked into the kingdom of heaven, is it?

If your only argument is to downgrade the teachings of your book, so you can contnue to worship in your own little bubble of ignorance, its already a pretty sorry state of affairs mate, and this thread is still young.

[MaddAussie]

I think this quote from the West Wing sums up this very susinctly

Bartlet: I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an abomination.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.
President Josiah Bartlet: Yes it does. Leviticus.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: 18:22.
President Josiah Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I have you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you? One last thing: while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-Ass Club, in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits.

[Stewart]

Also, so we don't get stuck on this one point, could you provide me with a quick index of the bible, perhaps just seperate it into true \ bull****.

Thanks mate. Would be a great help.

[kalniel]

On this point though, and with all due respect, who are you to decide which of Gods teachings to take as litteral, and which not to? If you could do this, it would make you a profit. Thats a bold claim indeed, me old cocker.

Well we covered this in the other thread as well. Short answer is you critically study the Bible and look for internal consistancy and check the timeline of events to make sure that something you're reading isn't updated/supplanted by something that comes along later that is more authorative. A good example is the long list of Jewish laws in the old testament - they may define the Jewish faith but there were replaced by the Christian laws of love your God and love your neighbour.

Secondly, and in the same area, you are qualified to speak on behalf on all Christians on this matter because...

Lack of qualification doesn't seem to stop you from claiming to speak for all Christians in the definition of the religion... but you can again read a more developed answer in the previous discussion we had. In short you can replace any of my use of the word Christianity with 'Christianity as I understand it having practised and studied it for many years, which convieniently seems to fit into consensus with all Christians I personally know'. If you wish me to make that clearer in future discussions I can do so.

You read, you follow. The omnipotent creator of the universe, the human race, and all matter lays down his teachings, you come along 2000 years later and go 'yeah... page 6, all true, page 19... just a nice story'

I doubt anything is in the Bible just to be a nice story.

Also, if you are a good, honest, God fearing Christian, cutting the legs away from your holy book, in the shape of 'don't take it all that seriously' is hardly going to get you fast tracked into the kingdom of heaven, is it?

I'm not cutting away any legs - it seems you are the one who is ignoring the very serious and applicable message.

If your only argument is to downgrade the teachings of your book, so you can contnue to worship in your own little bubble of ignorance, its already a pretty sorry state of affairs mate

If my 'ignorance' is simply that Christianity as it's real to me and many others is different from this religion you have invented then I can't really answer that. I'm perfectly happy to continue studying the book to find better understanding and challenge my own understanding - I'm happy to talk to experts and critics alike. Are you similarly happy to go to a Bible study class to obtain a better understanding of this book we're talking about?

[Stewart]

See Kalniel, you can take this chance to educate me, maybe even convert me, who knows.

I am going to read the bible. I make the promise to you. Why not, at least there are a few decent wars in there.

I take it you are a Christian, I also take it you don't follow the teachings of God. You ignore passages as you wish, you follow the ones you can be bothered to follow. You are not a Christian, really, you just perpetuate the sham. Don't follow the teachings of your Lord, but you do sing We Three Kings of Orient Are every now and again.

Big deal.

The Lord created the heavens and the Earth for that, did he? Christianity has been slowly going extinct for centuries, because it is at odds with modern society.

There are more non-Christians than Christians.

Of those calling themselves Christian, the vast majority are hypocrites. Who can say they follow the bible word for word these days? You aren't interested in Gods teachings, you do what you are told to do by the lawmakers. You are a Christian when, and only when, you are told you can be. Maybe in private you secretly agree with some of the more controversial teachings... haven't got the balls to admit it in public though? How can that not be the ultimate abject faliure?

You can either be secretly ashamed of your own religion, or disown the parts you don't like.

When you pray, who do you pray to, the God who's teachings you ignore whenever they become a little tricky to follow?

The God who's holy book you dismiss as not to be taken litterally? By your standards, if I buy a Christmas card I could probably call myself a Christian.

A billion people perpetuating a sham, a tiny handful of people who preach the bible, which society labels as homophobes, extremeists, even madmen; his message can be barely heard these days. Most of his teachings would get you thrown in jail if you preached them, his priests and vicars rape and sexually abuse children the world over.

Its a faliure mate. Just because you go to Church, pray every now and again and 'have faith' you are self satsfied... you can't even preach the bible because modern society has outlawed most of it. What are you reduced to? 'Its not meant to be taken that seriously'

Praise indeed.

And I am really trying not to argue, but this is the way I see things.

I could point you to any number of passages from the bible that you would not be allowed to preach as the truth. That you would not put your name to. That you could be arrested and thrown in jail as a criminal if you acted upon them or even showed support for them.

That isn't a sham?

At least if you stood up and said I am a Christan, I believe the bible is the word of God, and should be followed as such, you could respect it. You water it down so much, why even bother calling yourself one?

Saracen, G4Z, someone else say something. I don't want to get ahead of myself until Fuddam posts, and me and K will only shout each other into the ground.

[Stewart]

Leviticus 18:22

'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'

The word of God? Something you would shout from the rooftops? Something you are forced to ignore?

I don't know, I'm not a Christian. You are, Fuddam is. When you read that, you take it to mean what?

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

You worship this God?

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."
(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

The gays again! I'm no bible expert, but I reckon God has a 'thing' about them.

Now, I can live and let live, I'm an athiest, I can make up my own mind. Can you be a good Chrstian and just ignore these statements?

Tell me.