Striking Royal Mail Workers.

[Blitzen]

I wouldn't say no to £16,000 a year. Fair point, I don't work in London, but it is enough to get by

If you are a teenager fresh out of school it is.
My mortgage payments per year arent far short of £16K.

The Animus
Once again you prove that you are not living in the real world.
The pink and fluffy life you lead is very different from most other decent people.

[TheAnimus]

You said you were ranting about Royal Mail not rambling about the jobs market in the Victorian era - and you told me to stay on topic earlier?

I'll try and explain why its relivant one more time.

I am saying that the strikers in the north london sorting office had no excuse to go striking because they have a hudge plathora of different oppertunities on offer. Say 100 years in the past it would have been their only option, because they had no other oppertunities available for them.

Competition is the best way to improve working standards, if you have a shortage of good workers, then those good workers will be treated best by the jobs on offer. Whilst this is an economic theory, it dosen't just mean money per say, you might find its working environment, been able to take time off when wanted, or just the opertunity to work with children say.

The idea of blackmailing and employer is frankly to me, disgusting.

Isn't it also strange that the best paid jobs, are NOT unoinised?

[Blitzen]

I am saying that the strikers in the north london sorting office had no excuse to go striking because they have a hudge plathora of different oppertunities on offer

Thats complete rubbish (again).
If you are unskilled, no matter where you decide to work, the wage is going to be similar.

Maybe they could be you new footstool or butler.

it dosen't just mean money per say,

if you are going to use 'Lawrence Llewelyn Bowen' ponce language at least get it right.

[TheAnimus]

i really dislike the word unskilled, it sugests that they are a group of interchangable indentical people. I would of thought you of all people would have been saying that just because you don't have a degree/a-levels dosen't make you useless as far as employment goes.

[TheAnimus]

If you are a teenager fresh out of school it is.
My mortgage payments per year arent far short of £16K.

The Animus
Once again you prove that you are not living in the real world.
The pink and fluffy life you lead is very different from most other decent people.

It wasn't me saying that quote....

So what exactly is it that is not real world about my concept that competition for staff provides the best working pratices rather than blackmail?

I would say that you are living in Old Labour land.

Look at how the german unoins have worked over the last 40 years, and look at which still has a manafacturing industry.

[Blitzen]

i really dislike the word unskilled, it sugests that they are a group of interchangable indentical people. I would of thought you of all people would have been saying that just because you don't have a degree/a-levels dosen't make you useless as far as employment goes.

I do not have a degree directly from school (although i do have A-Levels). I did my degree in my 20's.

I find it odd you think i am a blue collar worker just because i do not agree with your archaic and quite frankly, biggoted views on anyone you think is a social scale below you.

Although you seem to assume so, you really are not that special. Ignorance is a poor trait in anyone and you have this in abundance.

[Salazaar]

i really dislike the word unskilled, it sugests that they are a group of interchangable indentical people. I would of thought you of all people would have been saying that just because you don't have a degree/a-levels dosen't make you useless as far as employment goes.

Unskilled doesn't have anything to do with academic qualifications. Just ask your local mechanic, builder, sparky, plumber etc...

Unskilled is entirely appropriate for the sort of work that posties do though it doesn't mean that they don't work hard.

[TheAnimus]

Although you seem to assume so, you really are not that special. Ignorance is a poor trait in anyone and you have this in abundance.

I would really like you to actually justify why a union is needed in todays world, when there is competition between employers, a comprehensive legal framework in place. Espesually those on the lower end of the pay scale, getting legal insurance costs a lot less (I was quoted £7.50 when renewing, but wanted the overseas stuff in case.....).

Unskilled doesn't have anything to do with academic qualifications. Just ask your local mechanic, builder, sparky, plumber etc...

Unskilled is entirely appropriate for the sort of work that posties do though it doesn't mean that they don't work hard.

I guess, i just all to often think like a programmer, and i don't like System.Object (sorry to all non .Netters). A lot of the unskilled work certain people have much better apptitude for. I suppose its just a definition of the granularity you have for a 'skill'.

[badass]

Unskilled doesn't have anything to do with academic qualifications. Just ask your local mechanic, builder, sparky, plumber etc...

None of those jobs have ever been classed as unskilled. Apart fro the Mechanic, all of those jobs require a lengthly apprenticeship/course to be passed before they can practice. Mechanics also generally have completed an apprenticeship.

Unskilled is entirely appropriate for the sort of work that posties do though it doesn't mean that they don't work hard.

Very true. Unskilled is more of a description of how long a job takes to learn. Could you show a "normal" person how to do all individual parts of the job in a few minutes? If so, it is an unskilled position.

[badass]

To earn £16k to £20k when you're 18 isn't a bad thing at all... but to still be earning that when you're 40+ is less good and if you stick with them, and your salary doen't go up with experience and time, then it's a scandal.

I just cannot agree with the part in bold at all. Salary should not just go up for years served or age. It should go up based on how well you do your job.
Usually as you spend longer in a job, you get better at it and so should get paid more but if someone younger and less experienced does a better job, they should get paid more.
Rewarding people for time served and nothing else is simply a way to reward the lazy and/or stupid.

[santa claus]

I'll try and explain why its relivant one more time.

Your eloquence knows no bounds .

To summarise: what you're really saying is that you would like the unskilled, unwashed serf rabble to just stfu and get on with their jobs whilst getting paid the wage of a church mouse because times are tough and someone has to be poor and that could be you if they keep queering up your deliveries goddamit?

You wish .

[TheAnimus]

Your eloquence knows no bounds .

To summarise: what you're really saying is that you would like the unskilled, unwashed serf rabble to just stfu and get on with their jobs whilst getting paid the wage of a church mouse because times are tough and someone has to be poor and that could be you if they keep queering up your deliveries goddamit?

You wish .

No you still don't get my point, no one is forcing them to work for RM.

They could just shut up and do a different job! There are so very many on offer here in London.

Its not because times are tough, its exactly the oppersite, they have so many different options, take bus driving, which is advertised on half of them as been 22k + overtime, apparently there is quite a shortage, if they want more money why not do that, you can even get grants for the training!

[santa claus]

No you still don't get my point, no one is forcing them to work for RM.

They could just shut up and do a different job! There are so very many on offer here in London.

Its not because times are tough, its exactly the oppersite, they have so many different options, take bus driving, which is advertised on half of them as been 22k + overtime, apparently there is quite a shortage, if they want more money why not do that, you can even get grants for the training!

Perhaps they enjoy their present job and the people they work with? Perhaps it suits their pattern of work and their travel arrangements? Perhaps what they do is a family tradition? Perhaps they are proud to provide this particular public service? Who knows? Whatever, they deserve a wage they can live on. If they leave for another job, whoever replaces them will be earning a pittance and we're back to square one.

[shaithis]

Location can mean more then skills these days anyway.

I currently live in London doing a fairly skilled IT job (SQL Server DBA) and earn a very decent wage. I am currently looking into moving back to Plymouth though and from the few like jobs I have seen, I will be expected to take AT LEAST a 50% wage cut (probably more).......leaving me on not a huge amount more then the 16k these "unskilled" RM workers are being paid.

It's all relative I guess.

[TooNice]

If they leave for another job, whoever replaces them will be earning a pittance and we're back to square one.

The argument here, is if the pay is so bad relative to the alternative options, then people would not go for those positions in the first place, and RM would then be forced to raise their wages. This process does sound more natural than taking the job, band together, and demand a pay rise.

I just cannot agree with the part in bold at all. Salary should not just go up for years served or age. It should go up based on how well you do your job.

I'll need to put more thought as to whether loyalty is to be rewarded (it is in some countries more than others, and I wonder if it turned out to be such a bad thing). But even assuming that it shouldn't, I think that at the very least, wage needs to keep up with inflation (unless said job has become devalued).

[TheAnimus]

Perhaps they enjoy their present job and the people they work with? Perhaps it suits their pattern of work and their travel arrangements? Perhaps what they do is a family tradition? Perhaps they are proud to provide this particular public service? Who knows? Whatever, they deserve a wage they can live on. If they leave for another job, whoever replaces them will be earning a pittance and we're back to square one.

As others have said, when they leave to attract someone they have to offer more.

So if they enjoy their job, have good hours, feel good doing their job, more so than jobs that offer more? How do you persuade someone to clean toilets in a Nightclub vrs in a Hotel? More money is often the simplest. If its a really nice relaxing job, with gentle exercise, people after often willing to be paid less.

Its this simple concept of there is more than one job, if people aren't treated well they can just change to one that treats them better.