London about to kick off again?

[TheAnimus]

The problem is that when these directors did a half assed job, they get a golden goodbye or just stay on getting paid for failure. The cleaner gets sacked and gets to work their notice.

That is actually a problem.

For me its that certain traders see it as a no risk gamble, if they make £10M for the bank, jackpot, 500k bonus! If they loose £10M for the bank, aww only £100k salary for that year, then they go become a maths teacher.

I'm also not trying to say that its 'completely fair' that we have such pay disparity, but right now I'm not seeing any US types complaing loadly about say Vietnam's poverty levels, lack of schooling in packistan. I'm seeing a bunch of iPhone touting (I consider an iPhone to be too expensive....) people saying they want more for themselves, providing no awnsers. As I wrote at length in the last post, there are so many things we should be looking to address, but they aren't, they are just protesting, there is no discussion, no informed debate.

[directhex]

Like it or not, an iPhone isn't a luxury item. It's at the upper end of consumer smartphones (where consumer smartphones start at £50 PAYG), sure, but unless it has "vertu" stamped on it, it's still consumer-level goods with consumer-level pricing.

[TheAnimus]

Like it or not, an iPhone isn't a luxury item. It's at the upper end of consumer smartphones (where consumer smartphones start at £50 PAYG), sure, but unless it has "vertu" stamped on it, it's still consumer-level goods with consumer-level pricing.

Really?

The lunch I had (£7.50) was a luxury, it was damned tasty but not at all needed, a salad would have been cheaper and healthier.

The thing is I've yet to see a measure that puts the global annual average earnings (gross note!) at any more than $1,000. $2-3 a day is normally the touted figure.

Still want to say that the iPhone isn't a luxury?

[Noxvayl]

Gah. I had a great article that I've lost, about how the "the best will move abroad" thing is bollocks. Bunch of interviews with bankers who moved to Switzerland for lower taxes - then came back to the UK because Switzerland is ****.

Would this help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc (10minute animated clip, very informative).

I know it isn't directly related in terms of interviews with people that have done what you claim but it illustrates an important point that influences the behaviour you spoke of. People have this distorted view that money is a useful incentive when studies have shown that it couldn't be further from the truth.

We work our best when we want to do something, when we feel the work we are doing is worthwhile, not when we get paid the most. It makes the argument over whether we should be paying people ridiculous sums of money void. We don't need to pay people obscene amounts of money to enable us to get the most benefit from their efforts, all we need to do is provide the necessities of life and let people have the freedom to go out and do what interests them the most. After all if people are only doing something for the money they probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

For a real world scenario of how this type of philosophy is put into practise and works brilliantly you can look at the business practises of Google. Google have a huge number of staff but they allow them to choose projects they want to work on. As mentioned in that clip it provides many benefits to Google but the benefits to employees are more profound because they have autonomy and are able to develop a sense of mastery and purpose within their jobs that best suits them. It's this type of philosophy in business we need to encourage because it is far better for everyone.

It might be off topic but it's a solution to problems we have been discussing that has been proven by studies and also businesses daring enough to try something new.

EDIT: For the Google video link the section referenced starts at 8:45 and is a talk on Google's twenty percent time.

[directhex]

Really?

The lunch I had (£7.50) was a luxury, it was damned tasty but not at all needed, a salad would have been cheaper and healthier.

The thing is I've yet to see a measure that puts the global annual average earnings (gross note!) at any more than $1,000. $2-3 a day is normally the touted figure.

Still want to say that the iPhone isn't a luxury?

Ah, the "the poor aren't poor really, they're just whiners" defense. I saw that lately on Fox News, when they proved it by saying 98% of so-called poor had luxuries like a fridge. (http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201107190025)

Are you really trying to argue that nobody should have any right to complain about their income in the UK because it's more than they'd earn as a rag collecter in Somalia?

Will you be satisfied before the general population of the UK have been moved closer to that point?

[G4Z]

£7.50 lunch is not a luxury either... what the hell are you on?

A luxury lunch to me would involve kobe beef, fois gras and Bollinger. Things I have in fact never even tried before... because they are luxury items. A £5 pasta salad and a £2 milkshake from M&S is not a bloody luxury.

[TheAnimus]

Ah, the "the poor aren't poor really, they're just whiners" defense. I saw that lately on Fox News, when they proved it by saying 98% of so-called poor had luxuries like a fridge. (http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201107190025)

Are you really trying to argue that nobody should have any right to complain about their income in the UK because it's more than they'd earn as a rag collecter in Somalia?

Will you be satisfied before the general population of the UK have been moved closer to that point?

Actually yes, because currently our lifestyles are serviced by people who really do live in poverty. Thats why I find it so frankly sad, that when you read most of the "i am the 99" manafesto sheet thingies, mostly people have made bad choices, they have every opportunity. Oh you left college with massive debts, boo hoo, I know plenty of people from the US who left with very small debts due to actually working during holidays, staying in cheaper accomodation etc. Meanwhile, they are touting something which is a complete non-necessity, which the people who built it can never hope to afford.

If you can't see why I find that in-equality so shocking, I think I might just give up on this?

The problem is that there is nothing relaly been protested about, they have no clear "this is our list of demands" type thing going on, instead they talk about anything and everything, when you spoke of these evil banks you couldn't even be bothered to name ONE. Instead drifting on to another topic.

Then when there is something which we all agree on, such as remuneration for poor performance at high levels of management, there are no useful suggestions!

If your saying to someone hang on, you don't really have any hardship, what better example than something like the iPhone? I'm a geek, and I think that they are simply too expensive. I'm also apparently one of these evil 1%ers (thou I must admit, I thought I was only 10% until this!) who I don't know exactly what it is I do, but I do know that I'm part of the problem, what problem they didn't say. Yes I went and spoke to some of them on my way home last night, just curious to find out what they wanted. I must admit I was dissapointed for a supposidly global movement how "first world" centric they are.

£7.50 lunch is not a luxury either... what the hell are you on?

A luxury lunch to me would involve kobe beef, fois gras and Bollinger. Things I have in fact never even tried before... because they are luxury items. A £5 pasta salad and a £2 milkshake from M&S is not a bloody luxury.

If ever your in SEA I know a great place in bangkok, that aside from the Bollinger (not what you should drink with such a dish imho) will tick those boxes. And heck yes, I'd say that is a very big luxury, but I'd also argue so is my lunch. There is no way my parents (both government) pensions would allow them such thing every day.

To me something is a luxury if its not needed and there are cheaper, often better substitutes available. That is it. In the case of my lunch its a lot more than the 70p it would have cost me to bring in the same from home.

Do you think its soley about affordability? If you look at those nice ifs graphs of hosehold income distrabution (including retired, un-employed etc), ask yourself what percentage could actually afford it, at what point does it become a luxury on the merrits of affordability. When I'm selling my sole out, I could easily have a business lunch at hawksmoore or somthing and actually earn more than the bill just on my time. Does that mean its not a luxury for me but a staple? I'd disagree strongly, a luxury to me is simply something which isn't necessery, and has cheaper often better substitutes around. Smoking n Drinking are classic examples.

[Andeh13]

Like it or not, an iPhone isn't a luxury item. It's at the upper end of consumer smartphones (where consumer smartphones start at £50 PAYG), sure, but unless it has "vertu" stamped on it, it's still consumer-level goods with consumer-level pricing.

Really? The Iphone is the epitome of a luxury good. A smart phone is a luxury good. A basic mobile phone is probably an essential item these days (phone calls/txts only) but a smart phone is a long way off being a staple product of ones life.

What does 90% of the people who use an Iphone/smart phone do with it? Internet, email, music player, occasional google maps... none of which are essential to have access to on a day to day basis. At all.

[directhex]

Really? The Iphone is the epitome of a luxury good. A smart phone is a luxury good. A basic mobile phone is probably an essential item these days (phone calls/txts only) but a smart phone is a long way off being a staple product of ones life.

What does 90% of the people who use an Iphone/smart phone do with it? Internet, email, music player, occasional google maps... none of which are essential to have access to on a day to day basis. At all.

The difference between an iPhone and an entry-level Nokia brick is £20 a month.

So the question is whether £20 a month is the difference between poverty and luxury.

[TheAnimus]

No, the difference between an iPhone and a pre-pay nokia, is £500.

Lets not bring credit in to this.

[directhex]

No, the difference between an iPhone and a pre-pay nokia, is £500.

Lets not bring credit in to this.

Why not? It's entirely relevant to your argument - you're saying "look, they're not poor because they have £500 up front for a shiny toy" - I'm saying "nobody buys this **** up front, and a brick on a contract is £10 a month starting price"

[TheAnimus]

WTF? Out of the '99%' how many do you think can GET a mobile phone contract?

I found it shocking the number of people who are on pre-payment meters for gas/electric, they get charged a fortune and no oppertunity to spread out the winter cost payments.

By your logic, everyone should have a BMW M5 because, on credit.................

[G4Z]

I asked my g/f about this iphone thing last night (which by the way, I still think is totally beside the point) , I asked if she thought an iphone was a luxury item and she said yes she did.

I said, 'How come when there are millions of them around and you see them all over?'

She made the same point as above that you could just get along with a 5 quid tesco phone and that a phone she considered a necessity and an iphone a luxury.

So I am starting to think a little differently about this point and I think really the confusion comes in because here we have an apparent luxury item which is common as a ford focus.

I think in the end, there is a difference between a luxury item and a high end expensive item. One of them is affordable if expensive for your average UK worker and the other is not. So I will concede that iphones are high end expensive items and take the point that you make. However I still don't think it is particularly ironic nor does it detract from the statements these protestors are trying to make about the severe inequality in our society.

Some people might be a bit first world centred, I think we all can be to some extent and it is natural. Part of the reason companies have been able to get away with the whole sweatshop thing is because it’s so far removed save for the odd panorama documentary. Or at least it was, until the plebeians all started getting interconnected over the internet.

Personally, I think this attitude change in the first world can only be a good thing for the 3rd world. If we become a lot less greedy as a society then there should be more to spread around the rest of the world.

[directhex]

WTF? Out of the '99%' how many do you think can GET a mobile phone contract?

A reasonable number of people earning under £100k each can get credit, I'd have thought.

[TheAnimus]

A reasonable number of people earning under £100k each can get credit, I'd have thought.

Fine. No one else is worse off in the world at all, they are not privledged people acting like spoilt children, making a lot of noise about something with no credible suggestions.

I don't suppose by chance your one of those who agree people in the Fabian movement need not lead by example either?

Been able to afford an iPhone immediately puts you in the top 2-5% of the world, depending on how you cut it. Then to start saying that they are hard done by is just shockingly out of proportion.

Until they have a coherent list of suggestions, not just rantings against un-named "banks" and the like, then I shall just regard them as children so spoilt, they don't realise how privileged they are, instead they are saying THEY are the hard done by ones.... pathetic.

[G4Z]

How are you not getting the fact that yes I as an individual might be in the top 5% but then there are the top 1% of our 5% who own 50% or more of all the weath.

Do you not find that sickening?

feel like I am repeating myself here but I already said I feel guilty about the fact the rest of the world doesn't enjoy my standard of living and don't feel I do enough. I will never be in that 1% either, wouldn't want to be because it seems to change your attitudes and brings in some really weird moral relativisms displayed by your good self. If I was in that 1% and never had to work again I would give my time away for free to help people and I would spend that fortune on helping people. After all there is only so much jet skiing and lazing about anybody can handle.

Don't see the bankers doing that tho do ya? don't see Fred the Shred getting charitable. No, those kind of people just want to aquire more. Quite frankly, its sick, evil and wrong.