London about to kick off again?

[TheAnimus]

How are you not getting the fact that yes I as an individual might be in the top 5% but then there are the top 1% of our 5% who own 50% or more of all the weath.

Do you not find that sickening?

And? Where do you think you sit globally? I'd guess your in a minority which owns more than 50% of the wealth.

The issue I have is how do you make it so that your not punishing people for doing well, the fact of the matter is this is where you and I differ. I personally think that a cleaner in a London office, who works long hours, is still much better off, working less hard, earning more than a paddy field worker. Ok less hard is the wrong term, different, in a more pleasurable manner. That is the kind of in-equality I think we should be focusing on, those who don't get any oppertunity for schooling, those who lack clean water, educating people who are in poverty on the options of birth control (dangerously close to fabian principles here....)

feel like I am repeating myself here but I already said I feel guilty about the fact the rest of the world doesn't enjoy my standard of living and don't feel I do enough. I will never be in that 1% either, wouldn't want to be because it seems to change your attitudes and brings in some really weird moral relativisms displayed by your good self. If I was in that 1% and never had to work again I would give my time away for free to help people and I would spend that fortune on helping people. After all there is only so much jet skiing and lazing about anybody can handle.

Being in 1% doesn't make you having a jet skiing lazing lifestyle I'm affriad, there are probably a higher proportion of people in the bottom 50% who have the lazing lifestyle.

Don't see the bankers doing that tho do ya? don't see Fred the Shred getting charitable. No, those kind of people just want to aquire more. Quite frankly, its sick, evil and wrong.

Whilst not are all as vocal as buffet and the like, I think its odd that you judge all these people in the same bucket. You don't know me, yet you seem happy to think my morals are broken, the difference is i'm in no way hypocritical about mine. I know what I do, I know what I don't do, and as such I'll be damned if someone else tells me how I'm to re-alocate money I've earn't.

I really don't want to get in to a moral bitch fight, but as a couple of people here know full well, you probably wouldn't 'win' in the who gives more to charity, and that has been true of my entire adult life that I've had my health.

When it comes to sweaping generalisations, I've found its normally those who spend a lot of time talking about how others should be doing more charitable things, who are the least charitable themselves.

The richest person I know (he is in the times rich list) left the uk because he considered the 50p rate the final insult. He curiously gives away about 90% of his annual earnings he doesn't re-invest, the thing is he chooses how it spends it, and seldom ever talks about it. I only know this because he made a donation to a small charity he knew I believe in, and whilst getting rather drunk talking about stuff he commented how sad he was that I had stopped something I had previously been doing. I also know a few people who show no sign of ever giving anything away, you can't just generalise.

[badass]

TheAnimus, your argument seems to be that provided there are people worse off that you, you are an idiot to protest about that which you think is unfair.

[TheAnimus]

TheAnimus, your argument seems to be that provided there are people worse off that you, you are an idiot to protest about that which you think is unfair.

Not at all.

That when there are people MUCH worse off than you, you shouldn't be protesting for those MUCH better off than you to 'do something'. If your really protesting about inequality you should be leading from the front, not critising others. I don't consider a protest such as this helping matters, and I've said why, they have no suggestions, no consistent list of demands, instead its always hazy "oh banks this, CEOs that". I say something like "yes, underperforming CEOs with contractual pay are a big problem, how do we actually solve that?" and no awnser comes back, when you look at the real effects of such a thing, its not the money the CEO is being paid that has the worst effect, its the damage they do, Nortel or Enron created far more of a problem than the imbalance of their CEO pay, so that is just such a low priority issue to sort, combined with most of the commentators having no real understanding of the complexities of running a firm. I would whole heartedly listen to someone like Bill Gates saying yes, the monkey we left in charge, who had worked since the start in MS has failed to deliver, we must do x,y,z to improve things. But these protestors haven't demonstrated that they have a clue how to deliver such things, the burden of proof lies with them that they know wtf they are talking about!

Then there is back to the original wealth issue, I would say that most people who say they can't afford to give half their money away could so easily if they made sacrifices to things I consider luxury goods, such as an iPhone. Instead however people prioritise things that they feel are 'essential' to them, which really if we're honest we all know aren't. Thats actually fine and dandy, I don't have a problem with that until they start critising others for doing the exact same thing.

So lets bring all this iPhone stuff back to context, this was about someone protesting against anti-capitalisim, and complaining on the beeb about inequality then 99% and 1% thing. They have options, they can choose something which as a lifestyle helps to solve the problem or at least goes in the least worse direction. If they are not willing to do that, and they are only willing to have others do it for them, they can sod off.

Would you listen to an anti-fur protester wearing a coat because no other was available, or it was a family heirloom? it doesn't matter, it is still a symbol of everything your claiming to be against
Would you let someone tell YOU that YOU weren't giving enough of your money away, when they have no understanding of your finances, nor do they lead by example? Myself I think they are the worst kind of scum, they absolve themself of any moral goodness.

I just did some maths, by my learning to fly, I could so easily have provided clean water for 12,000 people for a year by wateraid's figures. People are dieing from lack of clean water. I know that I could have saved lives but instead choose to fly, I'm aware of this, I thoroughly enjoyed my schooling, and would choose it again in a heart beat.

I know what kind of a monster my life choices make. Do you?

[Noxvayl]

I am going to have to disagree with you Animus, I won't reference your arguments directly but rather write about 2 subjects that are related. The one is Inequality and the other is the God Complex. Hopefully they makes sense, my thoughts on these issues aren't as clear as I'd like.

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To long can't be bothered to read version:

Inequality has a direct correlation to aspects of our society like crime, health and innovation. Social pressures like these, and many others, encourage people to protest; even though they may highlight specific cases or scenario's they tend to have a common thread: inequality.

As a society we also have a God Complex. We not only think the way we do things is right but we also ignore information that contradicts that belief.

On the one hand we can see there are some terrible situations that arise as a result of our system. On the other we don't know any better and think it's the best way of doing things and carry on regardless. We need to break this cycle and what the protesters call for is a change, not any change though. They specifically want to see a move towards a more equal society. Whether it works or not is irrelevant, we can't maintain the status quo. We can always make other changes until we get it right, but if we don't highlight problems and make changes we'll never get it right.

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Thoughts on inequality

We aren't talking about a few people or specific scenario's, we are talking about a nation that is ridiculously unequal and the measure of that inequality is best described in terms of money because it's universal within a society and it dictates a hell of a lot about our lives so has the greatest impact on us. Most importantly people are unable to get access to anything without money so if we distribute the money we have in an unequal manner we also distribute food, water and shelter unequally- all necessities of life.

While I recognise that people living in the upper 20% don't advocate depriving people of the ability to live, it's impossible to ignore the results of our system. We have more people hungry in the world than the entire population of western civilisation (Hunger Statistics), yet we have consistently produced more food than everyone needs to survive, for the last 3 years in particular (Josette Sheeran: Ending Hunger Now). It's not like we don't have the food for those people to eat, it's that the food is distributed in a way that prevents them getting access to it.

Inequality doesn't only affect our lives in terms of material things, it has profound implications on psychological aspects of our life that impact our creativity, happiness and general well being. Unequal societies(Spirit Level Slides from the Equality Trust) have high crime rates, low innovation, higher imprisonment rates, low social mobility, worse health, less trust, more mental illness and quite a bit more.

As you can see inequality has a catastrophic effect on populations. I have yet to find evidence that inequality is good so am baffled by why anyone thinks it's something we should maintain.

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The God Complex and it's implications

As a culture and society we still have blinkers on, we think we are doing things correctly and thus never stop to analyse what we are doing and check to see if it is actually beneficial for everyone. We blindly continue without realising what our system is producing; we are like the coyote in road runner where we've left the cliff but haven't realised. It still feels right so we must be ok, that's until we look down- until we analyse the results of our system and see what is happening ( Kathryn Schulz on Being Wrong ).

We are in a situation where there are hundreds of really clever idea's (Barefoot Movement ) that can make remarkable improvements in our society but none of them support inequality, because of this they tend to be deselected by the unequal system we find ourselves in. We happily go about technical innovations so long as they don't have a social impact that alters the inequality of our society. This needs to change.

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Conclusion

I will admit most the protesters don't realise this, but do they have to? I don't think so. They don't need to provide a solution either. In order to fix this problem we first need to analyse the results we have before us and identify what is wrong. After that we need to make a change that aims to rectify the problem and then check the results; if it works great try more of the same, if not try something else. The most amazing things in life have been created through trial and error (Tim Harford on Trail and Error ) and in order for us to use trial and error we need to first highlight a problem.

It's not worth arguing whether the protesters are competent or have solutions... are they right? Is there a problem? The answer is a resounding YES! We need to do something about it and the evidence suggests we should start by improving equality.

[j.o.s.h.1408]

Apparently dogs and shields are coming out at Occupy London protest outside St. Paul's and Jody MacIntyre is stirring the pot as usual(seriously why hasn't that prat been arrested for inciting this stuff). 3 nicked already.

Police are saying there's no major disorder, but they also said that wasn't a riot the other month.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15322134

Nothings happening. walked down st pauls a few days ago with my 70-200 f2.8 lens. waste of walk that was.

move along everyone nothing has happened so far

[j.o.s.h.1408]

Really?

The lunch I had (£7.50) was a luxury, it was damned tasty but not at all needed, a salad would have been cheaper and healthier.

The thing is I've yet to see a measure that puts the global annual average earnings (gross note!) at any more than $1,000. $2-3 a day is normally the touted figure.

Still want to say that the iPhone isn't a luxury?

A salad meal is only slightly more cheaper

[TeePee]

Why aren't you complaining and demanding that the government pay for your flight training?

[Noxvayl]

I'm knackered after making that post (number 148 above).

For those uninterested in reading everything I made a summarised version, please don't respond to only that. The rest has added information through links and better context.

I am going to watch this before going to bed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxetq4u2bK4 it's the author of The Spirit Level talking about equality. Should be interesting for those interested.

[j.o.s.h.1408]

Why aren't you complaining and demanding that the government pay for your flight training?

??

[j.o.s.h.1408]

i'm knackered after making that post (number 148 above).

For those uninterested in reading everything i made a summarised version, please don't respond to only that. The rest has added information through links and better context.

I am going to watch this before going to bed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxetq4u2bk4 it's the author of the spirit level talking about equality. Should be interesting for those interested.

it aint that long of a post lol

[TeePee]

??

If students demand that taxpayers pay for their liberal arts degree, then surely The Animus should have his flight training paid for.

[Noxvayl]

it aint that long of a post lol

Anyone can write a long post, making it coherent and concise takes much more effort and thought, and therefore time.

[G4Z]

If students demand that taxpayers pay for their liberal arts degree, then surely The Animus should have his flight training paid for.

Well, I do think education should be free myself and if it were down to me and I were in charge of everything I think I would probably include flying lessons, after all simulators are not that expensive and you can do most of the learning on the ground.

Then again, should driving lessons also be free? I think maybe they should in an ideal world.

[BobF64]

Sorry but that isn't even up for debate. If you never meant Starbucks and iPhones wouldn't exist without capitalism(the system) then you need to get your head checked because you definitely said it.

Sorry, my statement was unclear.

Both Starbucks and iPhones exist because they were funded by capitalist means, but those buying them are able to buy them because they too are funded by capitalist means, loans, credit etc.

However, neither you nor I can actually say they would exist if the system was different.

Such things do exist because people have, or had, access to surplus funds rather than living within their means. In the end, fancy phones and premium coffee are frivolous items, not necessary essentials.

It's not worth arguing whether the protesters are competent or have solutions... are they right? Is there a problem? The answer is a resounding YES! We need to do something about it and the evidence suggests we should start by improving equality.

True, their competency is irrelevant because they arent doing anything other than trying to get others to do something they can not.

Tbh, I am very doubtful anything will change, because those who can change it are happy with the current situation it seems.

As for equality, in most cases there is no such thing as equality, just positive discrimination passed off as equality.

[j.o.s.h.1408]

Anyone can write a long post, making it coherent and concise takes much more effort and thought, and therefore time.

Indeed my friend

[j.o.s.h.1408]

If students demand that taxpayers pay for their liberal arts degree, then surely The Animus should have his flight training paid for.

Good point but would you not class Aninus as a student too seeing as he or she is doing a course?