Election Results as they happen...

[Top_gun]

Actually, you never asked. You merely asserted an opinion and then assumed that was acceptable as a valid challenge.

But back to things you have said before this, which remain unsubstantiated opinion:

You deal with all ^that, get it properly proven and presented as a valid argument, and then we'll look at mine. Until then it merely remains as what you think, rather than anything more substantial.

Since I can? Yep, cool. Good. Publish away, then.

I base it on what you've provided me and presented in this thread, and the manner in which you've presented it. Direct, pure, unadulterated evidence on which to base my assertion. Despite several references to this, you've yet to even hint at any inaccuracy in my assessments thus far...

How you choose to envision me is not really much of my concern, but elements of it are actually protected by copyright and I charge by the hour... Legal representatives from Samuel Goldwyn Films and/or Universal Pictures may be in touch.

If Reading were anything like the 1980s, I'd have moved here far sooner. As is, it looks an awful lot like London, these days... and is set to get worse, as we import even more London commuters to yet another set of housing developments.

So are most of my father's friends in Kent. What's your point?

There are plenty outside of London, too. Probably more, given how much bigger Not-London is. Again, what's your point?

Yeah, I do - That's precisely why I moved out!

Yeah, funny you say that - We're headquartered in Reading, but our largest R&D and Operations sections are based in London, because the front line always go where the biggest pieces of sewage are. Coincidence? I think not!


So an assertion of, and appeal to, an authority that supports a confirmation bias, together with another assumption about my own sources... ?

So an admission of deliberate ignorance concerning several sources, while admitting a bias toward another based on assumed authority...?

I think that's more indicative of just how badly every other party did this time, that even if the Tories are as bad as people assert, they're still the best option for these poor Northerners!!

That would have sounded better if you'd raised the issue several pages back, when they actually began.

Actually you'll struggle to find a lighter, fairer and more just team of forum Admins (including Mods) than on HEXUS.

No, he's not and to try and assert otherwise is both disingenuous and a fallacy... maybe several fallacies. I might count how many, if I get some time later.

North?
What like Southall? That's West London.
Brixton, maybe? Nope, that's South.

Interestingly, I found this:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...and-and-wales/

Given how much of Europe comprises the same 'races' as the UK, I think you'll find race is not really an issue, here.
Nationality, sure, but not race.

Have you any statistics on the races of the victims, and of the perpetrators?
I'm somewhat genuinely interested in what you have, but expect you'll find many of those attacking non-whites are themselves non-white too. ISTR several incidents when I was living near in Southall, of attacks back and forth between Afro-Caribbeans and Asians. Same for areas like Manchester, Brum and even Scotland.


So did the majority of the country. But that's what happens when you're stuck between a rock and a hard Brexit...
It's always the lesser of two weevils.

You're absolutely correct. What Mister Zak should have said is that Northerners are actually less racist than Londoners or Reading dwellers, as demonstrated by the stats above!

Oh, you'd be equally sick if the Remoaners had won and were celebrating the nation's continued voluntary slavery to the unelected dictatorship of Brussels, I'm sure...

Facts, you say?
OK, let's see what facts you come up with:

So one link, and even then it's to a report by the BBC, one of the most heavily criticised sources in terms of bias and heavily questioned in terms of facts... is that all you have? One report by a racist, homophobic, anti-Hindu, anti-Sikh, pro-Muslim, London-centric bunch of fake news shilling Left-winger tax dodgers?

To quote a good friend of mine: "Of course, if you accept what's gospel from a very bias media"...

Funny - I do the exact same and yet you try to dismiss that. Double standards there, matey.

Coming from you and the purely personal experiences you've used to assert your arguments?
Nah....

I think I've seen enough to conclude that you are completely clueless.

First of all with regards to the stats, in your confused state you said that London is more racist than other regions without accounting that London has the biggest ethnic population compared to the rest of the UK. Further more, it is well known racist incidences are under reported. Funny how you accuse of others of confirmation bias yet done the same for yourself.

As for Reading, it's just a town with nothing remarkable about it. Does it have the same range of world class restaurants as London, does it have world class sports facilities, world class theatres, concert halls, full range of museums, the list goes on and on? Get it into your head that Reading is an insignificant place compared to London.

[TeePee]

Does it have a Cathedral famous for it's 123m spire?

[outwar6010]

So what you're saying is, if you voted tory, you're racist? Blue = racism?
Is that right? Lets be entirely clear on this in total clarity. If someone voted Tory.. they are Racist? Is that what you're saying?

Because if you are, you're accusing half of the country of being racist.. including the Muslims who I know voted Tory... is that right?

Sajid javid is probably considered by many asian muslims as a self serving arse wipe who helps white wash tory islamophobia. He hid himself away for the trump visit as trump requested it he not attend to banquet. I'm guessing your "muslim friends that voted tory" are self serving who don't care about islamophobia and racism from the tory party or incredibly ignorant of it. It's most likely the former.

[outwar6010]

Being Anti-immigration isn't (always) racist.

This is ignorant af. Farage always used imagery a horde of muslim refugees when advertising the party as its the thing that scares northerners most(something the media plays a big factor too in) even though its mainly eu migration thats taking place.

[outwar6010]

Actually, you never asked. You merely asserted an opinion and then assumed that was acceptable as a valid challenge.

But back to things you have said before this, which remain unsubstantiated opinion:






You deal with all ^that, get it properly proven and presented as a valid argument, and then we'll look at mine. Until then it merely remains as what you think, rather than anything more substantial.


Since I can? Yep, cool. Good. Publish away, then.


I base it on what you've provided me and presented in this thread, and the manner in which you've presented it. Direct, pure, unadulterated evidence on which to base my assertion. Despite several references to this, you've yet to even hint at any inaccuracy in my assessments thus far...


How you choose to envision me is not really much of my concern, but elements of it are actually protected by copyright and I charge by the hour... Legal representatives from Samuel Goldwyn Films and/or Universal Pictures may be in touch.


If Reading were anything like the 1980s, I'd have moved here far sooner. As is, it looks an awful lot like London, these days... and is set to get worse, as we import even more London commuters to yet another set of housing developments.


So are most of my father's friends in Kent. What's your point?


There are plenty outside of London, too. Probably more, given how much bigger Not-London is. Again, what's your point?


Yeah, I do - That's precisely why I moved out!


Yeah, funny you say that - We're headquartered in Reading, but our largest R&D and Operations sections are based in London, because the front line always go where the biggest pieces of sewage are. Coincidence? I think not!



So an assertion of, and appeal to, an authority that supports a confirmation bias, together with another assumption about my own sources... ?


So an admission of deliberate ignorance concerning several sources, while admitting a bias toward another based on assumed authority...?


I think that's more indicative of just how badly every other party did this time, that even if the Tories are as bad as people assert, they're still the best option for these poor Northerners!!


That would have sounded better if you'd raised the issue several pages back, when they actually began.


Actually you'll struggle to find a lighter, fairer and more just team of forum Admins (including Mods) than on HEXUS.


No, he's not and to try and assert otherwise is both disingenuous and a fallacy... maybe several fallacies. I might count how many, if I get some time later.


North?
What like Southall? That's West London.
Brixton, maybe? Nope, that's South.

Interestingly, I found this:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...and-and-wales/


Given how much of Europe comprises the same 'races' as the UK, I think you'll find race is not really an issue, here.
Nationality, sure, but not race.


Have you any statistics on the races of the victims, and of the perpetrators?
I'm somewhat genuinely interested in what you have, but expect you'll find many of those attacking non-whites are themselves non-white too. ISTR several incidents when I was living near in Southall, of attacks back and forth between Afro-Caribbeans and Asians. Same for areas like Manchester, Brum and even Scotland.


So did the majority of the country. But that's what happens when you're stuck between a rock and a hard Brexit...
It's always the lesser of two weevils.


You're absolutely correct. What Mister Zak should have said is that Northerners are actually less racist than Londoners or Reading dwellers, as demonstrated by the stats above!


Oh, you'd be equally sick if the Remoaners had won and were celebrating the nation's continued voluntary slavery to the unelected dictatorship of Brussels, I'm sure...


Facts, you say?
OK, let's see what facts you come up with:

So one link, and even then it's to a report by the BBC, one of the most heavily criticised sources in terms of bias and heavily questioned in terms of facts... is that all you have? One report by a racist, homophobic, anti-Hindu, anti-Sikh, pro-Muslim, London-centric bunch of fake news shilling Left-winger tax dodgers?

To quote a good friend of mine: "Of course, if you accept what's gospel from a very bias media"...


Funny - I do the exact same and yet you try to dismiss that. Double standards there, matey.


Coming from you and the purely personal experiences you've used to assert your arguments?
Nah....

Far right white yobs have been attacking mosques for some time. Theres been hundreds of instances ranging from trying to desecrate them to firebombing them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25469555

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-9977423.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-Ramadan.html

It goes on and on. Your stats are meaningless as I've never heard of statista and don't have access to look at where they source their stats. I mean there are no government graphs that look like that so it can't be trusted. Can you find something from the home office or police to justify what you're saying? Doubtful.

[Top_gun]

Far right white yobs have been attacking mosques for some time. Theres been hundreds of instances ranging from trying to desecrate them to firebombing them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25469555

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-9977423.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-Ramadan.html

It goes on and on. Your stats are meaningless as I've never heard of statista and don't have access to look at where they source their stats. I mean there are no government graphs that look like that so it can't be trusted. Can you find something from the home office or police to justify what you're saying? Doubtful.

I'd imagine Statista is a third party using freely available government stats from official UK sources. What's funny is seeing Ttaskmaster using google to find random pieces of info to defend his corner. At the end of the day it comes down on how you interpret the data within context. This is where Ttaskmater had failed in a big way. So much, that I do wonder if he actually has a PPE Degree. On current evident, probably not.

[TeePee]

This is ignorant af. Farage always used imagery a horde of muslim refugees when advertising the party as its the thing that scares northerners most(something the media plays a big factor too in) even though its mainly eu migration thats taking place.

Nah.

[g8ina]

OK last chance, cease the personal atacks and insults, thats ALL of you, or Admin (yes, with a Capital A) may be forced, by your own actions to do something other than comment.

I have no axes to grind here, I have tried to keep out of the thread apart from, on more than one occasion, asking for a stop to personal insults, so I will have no problem in taking action, just try me.

[[GSV]Trig]

This is ignorant af. Farage always used imagery a horde of Muslim refugees when advertising the party as its the thing that scares northerners most(something the media plays a big factor too in) even though its mainly eu migration that's taking place.

I agree with him, anti-immigration doesn't always have to be a racist subject, but it is a very, very fine line between a country that's being underfunded and overused, and if a load of those using it aren't from this country then that fine line get finer, if you cant get more funding, then you look to reduce use, and those that aren't from here and don't pay into the system are always going to be a target, if it wasn't the immigrants it'd be those that CBA to work and sponge off of the system, it's just a case of whichever is the easy target and suits the media lean at the time..

[Zak33]

I'm guessing your "muslim friends that voted tory" are self serving who don't care about islamophobia and racism from the tory party or incredibly ignorant of it. It's most likely the former.

That's quite offensive, don't you think? I think they DO care about islamophobia!!!!

You don't know them, and you don't understand why they chose to not vote for Jezza... but you're going right in on the accusation of being "self serving".
Pehaps it's because they don't live in London? Because they don't. Or perhaps they ARE self serving.. as that's what voting is for.

In fact I thnk it's fair to say that you too are self serving, voting for Labour when their costings clearly added up to a ferocious national debt, because it would suit you.

And heres the rub....THATS OK.... it's your vote. That's good. Its why we get to vote.

What Ttaskmaster said is true

Given how much of Europe comprises the same 'races' as the UK, I think you'll find race is not really an issue, here.
Nationality, sure, but not race.

he's right.. it's not race. It's nationalism in most cases.

Now.. let's look at some examples of racism from London

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49817319
"In April, some Hammers fans were filmed making anti-Semitic chants as they travelled to a match at Manchester United." so... Londoners, travelling north to be racist. Cunning.....

And Millwall were fined £10,000 in Aug for having fans chanting racism in Everton....
https://www.theguardian.com/football...ton-fa-cup-tie


So you see, Londoners, can act hellishly badly, too, while travelling to the North, a place allegedly a hotbed or racism.

And that IS racism... not nationalism ref jobs and EU citizens.. this is actual racism.

[Top_gun]

Now.. let's look at some examples of racism from London

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49817319
"In April, some Hammers fans were filmed making anti-Semitic chants as they travelled to a match at Manchester United." so... Londoners, travelling north to be racist. Cunning.....

And Millwall were fined £10,000 in Aug for having fans chanting racism in Everton....
https://www.theguardian.com/football...ton-fa-cup-tie


So you see, Londoners, can act hellishly badly, too, while travelling to the North, a place allegedly a hotbed or racism.

And that IS racism... not nationalism ref jobs and EU citizens.. this is actual racism.

Again a poor understanding of London. These days quite a number of fan base for clubs like West Ham, Millwall and Chelsea actually lives outside London as a by-product of gentrification. Still, racist chants is common thing around England so it's not a London thing as Zak seems to make out.

Still, London voted to Remain unlike the North who voted to Leave on the basis of immigration.

[Saracen999]

I agree with him, anti-immigration doesn't always have to be a racist subject, but it is a very, very fine line between a country that's being underfunded and overused, and if a load of those using it aren't from this country then that fine line get finer, if you cant get more funding, then you look to reduce use, and those that aren't from here and don't pay into the system are always going to be a target, if it wasn't the immigrants it'd be those that CBA to work and sponge off of the system, it's just a case of whichever is the easy target and suits the media lean at the time..

It's not really a fine line at all.

If someone objects to some immigrants because of race (or religion, skin colour, etc., as per legal definitions of racism), that is racist, especially if you have no problem with unlimited numbers of other migrants because you don't have a problem with their skin colour.

If you object to all immigrants regardless of race, skin colour, etc because we're "full" that it also not racist .... though in my opinion, it's pretty stupid because while the effect of large scale migration is complex it does, undeniably, have very significant benefits.

Yet another immigration argument is not even about numbers, let alone the race, etc, of immigrwnts. It's about where immigration policy is determined - i.e. Westminster or Brussels. That is part of the Brexit sovereignty argument and says nothing about race.

Yet another aspect is "Australian-style" points system. Note: not the Aussie systen, but a points system. That gives points for a whole range of factors like age, occupation, education, first degrees, advanced degrees, occupational or professional qualifications, and so on. What it doesn't need to ask is race, skin colour, etc.

This is designed to concentrate immigration on skills, abilities etc and to meet the needs of this country. So if we need heart surgeons but not brain surgeons, you give more points to that occupation and qualifications than those we are overflowing in. Again, race has nothing to do with it.

But, of course, as soon as you try to point that out, someone immediately calls it racist because you had the temerity to even question immigration, which is a cheap and now, for some years, discredited way to try to shut the discussion of the topic down entirely.

[Top_gun]

That's quite offensive, don't you think? I think they DO care about islamophobia!!!!

You don't know them, and you don't understand why they chose to not vote for Jezza... but you're going right in on the accusation of being "self serving".
Pehaps it's because they don't live in London? Because they don't. Or perhaps they ARE self serving.. as that's what voting is for.

I think outwar6010's view was perfectly sound and to say it was quite offensive is just bizarre.

The Tory Party has a problem with Islamophobia and to not invite a Muslim Secretary of State to a Trump's banquet says it all really. Watching the Sajid Javid interview about the incident shows him in a very uncomfortable state.

In fact I thnk it's fair to say that you too are self serving, voting for Labour when their costings clearly added up to a ferocious national debt, because it would suit you.

And heres the rub....THATS OK.... it's your vote. That's good. Its why we get to vote.

I do wonder if your view of Labour costings were based on smears from the Tories and their chums in the press.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-taxpayer-2400

Here's an excerpt from the Guardian.

Verdict
The Conservative claim is not based on any serious study of Labour’s proposals since there are not yet proposals to study. It also implies that all taxpayers would pay an equal amount towards Labour’s programme, which is not the case.

The same old lying Tories.

[Top_gun]

It's not really a fine line at all.

If someone objects to some immigrants because of race (or religion, skin colour, etc., as per legal definitions of racism), that is racist, especially if you have no problem with unlimited numbers of other migrants because you don't have a problem with their skin colour.

The legal definition for racism also applies to country of origin (nationalism).

Looks like Zak33 and the Taskmaster have both inadvertently confirmed the racist issue!!!

[Ttaskmaster]

I think I've seen enough to conclude that you are completely clueless.

Then you clearly haven't been looking, else you'd conclude the opposite. Your choice, though.

First of all with regards to the stats, in your confused state you said that London is more racist than other regions without accounting that London has the biggest ethnic population compared to the rest of the UK.

And what is 'ethnic', other than a debatably racist and outdated term for non-white people?
Moreover, why are you deliberately alluding to racism being the domain of only white people, particularly when other posts here have pointed out how there is just as much racism within and bewteen these "ethnic" groups (arguably more) as there is between white and non-white... especially in London, since London "has the biggest ethnic population"...?

Seems it's not only Northerners who can shoot themselves in the feet...

Further more, it is well known racist incidences are under reported.

So London is even worse than reported? Glad I left, then!

Does it have the same range of world class restaurants as London, does it have world class sports facilities, world class theatres, concert halls, full range of museums, the list goes on and on?

Does it need those in order to have significance? Outside of your demonstrably blinkered and unfounded opinion, I mean...

Reading is a major commerce hub, particularly for insurance and IT and people commute in as well as out. PwC assert that "It is ranked the UK's top economic area for economic success and wellbeing, according to factors such as employment, health, income and skills"... which beats London, in that regard, and that's one o' them thar smart London companies saying so!!

And yes, Reading does have culture, music festivals, Michelin starred restaurants and so on. Plenty to do even for pretentious graduates looking to pretend they understand intellectual matters.

Get it into your head that Reading is an insignificant place compared to London.

It's significant enough that you felt the desperate need to bring it up as a flawed comparison... and have still failed in that regard.

Far right white yobs have been attacking mosques for some time. Theres been hundreds of instances ranging from trying to desecrate them to firebombing them.

So?
Once again, racism is NOT limited to white against non-white, and is often far from it.

It goes on and on. Your stats are meaningless as I've never heard of statista and don't have access to look at where they source their stats.

One of the most successful statistics databases in the world, and you've never heard of them?
Oh well.

It's not difficult to discover those answers... There's this thing called The Internet, you see.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statista

I mean there are no government graphs that look like that so it can't be trusted.

What?
You mean the 'lying Tory' government that we should not trust? You don't trust an independent site because their data doesn't match what the 'lying Tories' say it should?
Yeah, OK, that's all I needed to hear....

Can you find something from the home office or police to justify what you're saying? Doubtful.

Err... Statista is using Police data.

What's funny is seeing Ttaskmaster using google to find random pieces of info to defend his corner.

Not so random. We have accounts with Statista, as we're one of their clients on the finance side.

At the end of the day it comes down on how you interpret the data within context. This is where Ttaskmater had failed in a big way. So much, that I do wonder if he actually has a PPE Degree. On current evident, probably not.

I've neither confirmed nor denied what my degrees are in, though from your remarks, I presume you do have such a degree... or at least wish us to think so?
Given how often you've ignored context and failed to even use any data at all, you hopefully have enough sense to at least have started the RMA process on it.... Does DSR even allow for refunds on downloaded PDFs?

[outwar6010]

That's quite offensive, don't you think? I think they DO care about islamophobia!!!!

You don't know them, and you don't understand why they chose to not vote for Jezza... but you're going right in on the accusation of being "self serving".
Pehaps it's because they don't live in London? Because they don't. Or perhaps they ARE self serving.. as that's what voting is for.

In fact I thnk it's fair to say that you too are self serving, voting for Labour when their costings clearly added up to a ferocious national debt, because it would suit you.

I should add you are speaking to a british asian who also muslim so it's safe to say I've been paying attention to islamophobia and racism a bit more than you.

Its funny how a certain part of the population absorb and believe tory lies. The national debt was largely (currently around 2 trillion) was caused first by the bank bailout and then the tories giving even more free money to the banks, letting corporations pay millions instead of billions owed etc. Labours costing made sense actually large businesses what they owed and use that money to invest in the country. Nationalising isn't something he just pulled out of nowhere it's something more successful european countries do to bring down costs and let their citizens get around easier for work etc.
There is also the issue of climate change which tories really don't care about. Each winter the elderly die because they simply can't afford to heat their homes this could vanish if we had the greens or labour in government. We have something like a decade to make drastic changes and its not like renewables only have environmental benefits they will lead to cheap as chips living costs in the long term.

Now.. let's look at some examples of racism from London

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49817319
"In April, some Hammers fans were filmed making anti-Semitic chants as they travelled to a match at Manchester United." so... Londoners, travelling north to be racist. Cunning.....

And Millwall were fined £10,000 in Aug for having fans chanting racism in Everton....
https://www.theguardian.com/football...ton-fa-cup-tie


So you see, Londoners, can act hellishly badly, too, while travelling to the North, a place allegedly a hotbed or racism.

And that IS racism... not nationalism ref jobs and EU citizens.. this is actual racism.

I'm sure if you were looking honestly you would have found a lot more examples of northerners acting far worse and how do those stories you linked even compare to places of worship being firebombed? One final point because I've quite frankly had enough of having to prove racism has gotten out of hand from northerners and the tories is this, if brexit is all about eu migration and the tories etc aren't racist etc why are we seeing all this increased hate and attacks on muslims? why did the windrush scandal happen? Also why are tommy robinson and katie hopkins both joining the tories and urging like minded people to do the same?