The programme was such a US response after the 2009 Swine flu and would have delivered loads of portable and relatively low cost ventilators from 2011 onwards. The US is down at least 40000 portable ventilators,maybe even more,because of what those companies did.Originally Posted by TeePee
The big company buying the smaller ones and then ditching the contacts is bad enough. But you also have to wonder about the person or persons, on the other side, responsible for selling the company in this situation and ask why they did so and of course why part of the deal did not include a commitment to that contract.
On the government side surely a deal like this should include some sort of phrasing or legislation such that the contact had to be honoured and couldn't just be cut.
Not worth the paper it was printed on?
All celebrities are coming forward and donating so much. Even the big celebrity like Bachan said can we delete 2020. So much damage has been done by this virus. Don't where did it originated in reallty. Some say its bioattack but no proof yet.
Johnson hasn't been showing his face for a day or two, despite my dislike for him I hope he's genuinly OK.
They should really have some stipulations,but there is also a lot of financial lobbying which does not help too.
You know things are not great in the UK when the US is concerned at how few ventilators we have:
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...trump-11966593
Meanwhile during the briefing, Dr Deborah Birx, the White House's coronavirus response coordinator, pointed out the relatively low number of ventilators in the UK compared to the US.
She said: "We are worried about groups all around the globe. I don't know if you heard the report this morning, there are 8,000 ventilators in the UK.
"If you translate that to United States, that would be like the United States having less than 40,000 ventilators. We have five times that."
That seems low if yesterday's count that we already have over 10000 people in hospital is to be believed.
Having clicked on the article, is it not a bit rich for Trump to be criticising the UK's response after his own shambolic reaction to the outbreak? Surely their memories are not that short?
WRT the ventilators, not everyone currently hospitalised requires a ventilator, and there are supposedly tens of thousands rolling off UK production lines over the coming weeks.
Given Dyson are planning to send thousands internationally - if the need were so desperate, would they not be staying in the UK, forced by the Government or otherwise?
Also relating to ventilators, I read something about some Swiss manufacturer rubbishing the plans for other manufacturers to start building them as though they're some infinitely complex machine requiring decades of R&D and an expert company. I understand their desire to protect their own business model but it's a pretty ridiculous claim given companies already have prototypes, some have already entered mass production, and even some Youtubers and universities have came together and designed bare-minimum ventilators using off-the-shelf parts. Even Smiths, a UK based company which normally produces ventilators, has opened up one of its designs for other companies to make given the current situation.
Oh and one last thing and a bit of a rant: Smiths have vowed to not increase pricing, and many of these new manufacturers I expect will be making little to no profit given the situation (though I expect it will be great in terms of PR afterwards). And yet there are apparently some degenerates on the international market making silly money from reselling the machines for many times the normal price. Regarding the whole 'not getting involved with the EU project' thing - I wonder how much use that would be anyway - literally every country is trying to source the machines so who exactly would the EU get priority over, and would it sidestep this abhorrent trend of profiteering? I understand it's important to get 'as many as possible' but I wonder how many people have considered how realistic the whole thing is/was anyway? I mean I could be missing something, but it just seems a bit too convenient to me.
Last Edit (hopefully): Part of me wonders whether the people in that article are just poking criticism at other countries to distract from the awful state of affairs back home? I don't recall any UK officials referring to the situation as a conspiracy or nothing to worry about...
Last edited by watercooled; 02-04-2020 at 02:57 PM.
Jonj1611 (02-04-2020)
https://twitter.com/ClarkeMicah/stat...19577834237952
Hitchens on twitter downplaying the coronavirus......
We have a lower number of ventilators per capita than the Italians....a country with severe economic and political problems. The 8000 number in the NHS is accurate:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...navirus-crisis
The total number might be a bit higher if we include private hospitals. The government said we need around 40000 ventilators. We are waiting on another 33000 ventilators,and only 30 locally built ventilators will arrive next week:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9440471.html
Certain local companies which could have supplied ventilators quicker,were ignored and are selling abroad.
The US has 173000 ventilators:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/b...-shortage.html
12700 are governmental backups - the US has more backup ventilators than available ventilators in the UK. The fact that the shambles of a US healthcare system has more is telling and why the US is mocking us really.
The reason the US has so many is really due to attitudes toward end of life care rather than healthcare systems. In the US, there is a culture of prolonging life as far as possible, far more so than in the UK. This leads to a lot more people spending significant time on ventilators before the inevitable 'off', while in the UK the same people would be moved to hospice care. Part of this is the much more religious culture in the US.
Then there's the fact that, while the US Heathcare system is a shambles, the quality of care is actually extremely good. Access to care, and it's cost are generally the downsides.
CAT-THE-FIFTH (02-04-2020)
People in this thread and on purpose excuse making and moaning at other countries,to hide the lack of preparation the UK has done. They need to take off their rose tinted glass regarding this. The US situation might be bad but the UK is woefully underprepared on purpose. As I also showed unlike the UK,the US had been trying to increase ventilator numbers for 10 years,but the programme got scuppered by corporate interests.
The same goes with the EU bulk buy which suddenly is a BAD thing - just wow! The EU has half a billion people,and the whole stated point of the bulk buy was to get the ventilators quicker from established companies and at a lower cost,ie,to reduce the chances of profiteering. These designs are tried and tested.
Also do people really think if these companies tried to ripoff the EU on purpose,knowing how petty they are,that after this crisis passes,they won't fine them into oblivion for "anti-competitive behaviour".
On top of this we are already buying nearly 10000 ventilators from foreign companies probably at inflated prices. Most of the "new" ventilators we are making locally have not been fully tested yet,so there is going to be a delay of weeks,as the government said they need to be tested before we induct large numbers of it.
People seem to forget ventilators are simple,but need to be reliable,so testing has to be done beforehand. These machines are on permanently for weeks at a time.
From the Guardian article:
Another article about the other ventilators being made here:It has previously been announced that another 10,000 machines have been contracted from the vacuum cleaner group Dyson, although as this is a completely new design it will need regulatory approval.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...covid-19-fight
Only the ventilators from Smiths and Penlon are ready to go as they are existing designs.
The other designs are new designs which need to be tested before mass deployment,so there is going to be a delay of weeks,which is weeks we don't have.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 02-04-2020 at 04:23 PM.
ik9000 (04-04-2020)
Also those excuse making for this current government's lack of planning:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9432296.html
So they forget to even get onboard the EU offer to pool resources,they forget to answer back to a UK company which already could supply ventilators here,but have ordered nearly 10000 ventilators from abroad(probably at a markup),is buying unproven designs,etc.A blunder that may have seen the UK miss out on an offer of 25,000 life-saving ventilators will be investigated, Michael Gove says.
A Cheshire company says it also told the Department of Health it could secure 50 million coronavirus testing kits – but its email went unanswered for two weeks.
The ventilators were then snapped up by other countries, Direct Access has revealed, adding to criticism of ministers for failing to prepare for an expected deluge of desperately ill patients.
We would have had 1000s of more ventilators now....but,but ideology over lives is more important.
The whole ventilator purchasing methodology makes zero sense. But,but everything the government is doing is fine.
Also more lies:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9440471.html
Only 30 new British-built ventilators will be delivered to the NHS next week to treat coronavirus patients, the government has admitted."I think we expect that first batch to be up to 30 ventilators, with hundreds more from that particular consortium to follow in the coming weeks.These are the Penlon ones which are an existing design...not the Dyson one. 100s,wow brilliant. They are meant to supply 5000~10000 ventilators.We need 32000 more. So are we going to wait until the virus has peaked to finish the purchase? We literally have weeks....its not going to happen.The NHS has only 8,000 ventilators – when 30,000 are likely to be needed – and only a further 8,000 are expected to be ready before the expected peak of the epidemic, in mid-April.
Idiots had 4 to 8 weeks to get the ball running,we would have had far more ventilators and more PPE.
Local companies and European partners offered devices,but were soundly rejected for reasons.
People need to understand we are fighting against the clock here. Time is a luxury we don't have.
More and more medical workers are getting sick due to not enough PPE.
Even at Great Osmond Street Hospitals,73 workers have the virus and 318 have to stay at home:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/g...-a4405146.html
These delays in PPE and ventilators will have an effect on our medical staff. You are seeing it in Spain and Italy too.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 02-04-2020 at 04:53 PM.
Just In Time*
*as long as no-one else needs them too.
CAT-THE-FIFTH (02-04-2020)
At the rate we are going probably more like Just out of Time.
The government is so shocked by the results of the 2016 NHS flu pandemic exercise,the detailed results are still classified.
But we all know some of the recommedations included buying more ventilators. Yet it seems we are waltzing along complacently ignoring offers of ventilators from local and international partners. Who cares about timeframes...not at all important.
We had our first cases of COVID-19 in late January,and by then Wuhan was in full lockdown.
Two months later we have not had enough extra ventilators delivered,let alone PPE. 30 ventilators...when we need 30000 at least.
A few weeks ago I was actually confident we might have had enough tests,PPE and ventilators delivered by now. What a fool I was to be hopeful.
But it transpires its more hot air and no substance on the part of our glorious rulers.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 02-04-2020 at 05:06 PM.
Where have people in the thread been 'making excuses' exactly? No-one (that I can see) said the system was in any way ideal but looking at it through the eyes of pragmatism rather than ifs-and-buts and some nebulous claims of some bulk-buy from some manufacturer who will suddenly be able to supply the whole of the bloc and need none for themselves? Feel free to enlighten us on where exactly the EU was going to make this order from. Because from what I can tell, no country has 'enough' ventilators, and every country with the production capabilities will want them for themselves first and foremost, surely?
The US programme getting stalled by corporate interests as described - like many things, it should hopefully be a big wake-up call to Governments to take a hard look at funding and preparedness. Playing the blame game or politicising things right now, helps no-one.
WRT profiteering - good luck fining companies, after the fact, who may have no presence in the EU, and could for all we know have cashed in and legged it before the dust has had a chance to settle. Anything claimed back after the fact is a bonus, but it's not a given. There is absolutely some horrendous profiteering going on: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52074862
What makes you think that testing will delay the introduction of new products by weeks? Much of the approval can be expedited, and for example there's no reason this couldn't be done on a limited first batch while others are in production - many of the things which may not stand up to scrutiny (which in reality they should, given the specifications are pretty transparent) could be remedied with minor adjustments e.g. to software. Reliability isn't some unachievable goal either, especially since many of these units are built from existing designs, and the ones that are not are likely to be very simplistic with a minimum of components. I think the complexity of a very basic version of such devices is being really over-exaggerated to the point of fear-mongering in some articles, like the one from that Swiss manufacturer. Smiths, on the other hand, seem confident that their design can be built by others...
I'm sure if any Governments had a crystal ball they would have planned things differently, but as it happens that is not the case. Health services around the world have to make some very tough decisions on what they should invest in to prepare for health crises - some are perhaps fortuitous enough to be better prepared for this specific event, others less so. Mocking, name-calling, blaming for the past is not productive or beneficial in any way right now. The situation is what it is, and it is important for governments, companies and people to work through things as best they can.
And yes, after the fact, I'm sure there will be some big questions needed answering by all sorts of leaders. I'll agree that there are aspects which should have been better with the knowledge available at the time, and not acting as such probably amounts to a pretty serious case of negligence.
Jonj1611 (02-04-2020)
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
