Covid - What would YOU do?

[chockimon]

COVID-19 Vaccines and Severe Allergic Reactions
Updated Dec. 19, 2020

CDC has learned of reports that some people have experienced severe allergic reactions—also known as anaphylaxis—after getting a COVID-19 vaccine. As an example, an allergic reaction is considered severe when a person needs to be treated with epinephrine or EpiPen© or if they must go to the hospital.

This page will be updated as quickly as possible when we get new information.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...-reaction.html

As of Dec 18th, 3150 ill health effects after taking the vaccine.
unable to perform normal daily activities, unable to work, required care from a doctor or health care professional.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/me...OVID-CLARK.pdf

There you go and you can keep your snake oil.

[Pob255]

You know if we were brutally pragmatic about this and had 0 empathy then we should be actively encouraging the virus spread, given the death rates it would go a long way to solving the looming pension crisis and other ageing population issues . . .

Luckily the majority of the ageing population demographic is conservative, so matter how bad you think they are the current government is not dumb enough to advocate killing a large block of their own voters . . .

For the people saying they would push personal responsibility, umm that's been a big chunk of what this government has done since the start and every time it's gone wrong, remember back to the start of the year, cases were rising, other countries were going into lock down and Boris said we wouldn't but told people to stay home and work from home if possible, well the weather was nice that weekend and there was loads of people going out, businesses were telling employees to go in as normal on monday, the government had to issue the lockdown to force people to take this virus seriously.

Now I support personal responsibility the issue I see it is that our societal values is that of selfish personal responsibility, "we" (collectively) don't really care about society except in terms of how it benefits us as individuals.
Face masks are a great example of this, they are a minor inconvenience that greatly protect other people from the chance that you are infected, they do little to protect you from becoming infected.
For many people it seems the minor inconvenience of wearing a mask out weights the possibility that they are infecting others, so they don't ware one or don't correctly cover their face.

Until we individually start thinking and acting on a societal level we need authoritarian measures to force us to behave in a way that puts the larger society above the personal level and yes that becomes very open to abuse and clashes with one of our other factors that being our tribalism

[Pob255]

COVID-19 Vaccines and Severe Allergic Reactions
Updated Dec. 19, 2020

CDC has learned of reports that some people have experienced severe allergic reactions—also known as anaphylaxis—after getting a COVID-19 vaccine. As an example, an allergic reaction is considered severe when a person needs to be treated with epinephrine or EpiPen© or if they must go to the hospital.

This page will be updated as quickly as possible when we get new information.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...-reaction.html

As of Dec 18th, 3150 ill health effects after taking the vaccine.
unable to perform normal daily activities, unable to work, required care from a doctor or health care professional.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/me...OVID-CLARK.pdf

There you go and you can keep your snake oil.

Try actually reading that not just looking at the pretty graph.
as of dec 18th 112,807 doses administered, 6 case reports of anaphylaxis, their is no explanation for the "3150 ill health effects after taking the vaccine", nothing about what they were or why. only that it's not anaphylaxis.

[ik9000]

It clearly states 3150 adverse health effects, and whatever they may be are irrelevant. People are still suffering from adverse reactions to the vaccine. If you want to know what they are then contact the CDC yourself for more pertinent information.

You should maybe look up the disclaimers in even basic non-prescription medicines that you probably take on a regular basis as to risks of possible KNOWN side effects and risks. I don't think there is a single drug that doesn't have some small outlier % risk. It doesn't mean we should abandon using them! You should also look at the correlation of flu vaccine and % "ill health effects" as you put it afterwards, as that is not uncommon. But it's a jolly site better than getting the flu itself.

[MrJim]

People are still suffering from adverse reactions to the vaccine. If you want to know what they are then contact the CDC yourself for more pertinent information.

The 'averse reactions' are normal for many vaccines. Having had the 'flu vaccine for over 30 years, these include soreness at the site of injection, muscular aches, joint pain, fatigue, headaches, and general malaise. I heard one interviewee describe the after effect of taking the covid vaccine as being like having a hangover; if that's the price I have to pay for protection from a potentially lethal illness, I'm more than happy to pay it.

[ik9000]

As I understand it, herd immunity requires a sufficient percentage to be immunised, but that that's around the 70-80% mark. In a perfect world, the virus would cease to exist but like most viruses, we haven't got close to that. The actual aim is to keep incidence low enough to make it handleable by medical facilities.

Where you lost me is in forcing people to take it. That strikes me as a slippery slope for several reasons.

First, what if the objection is religious? I don't personally agree with those religious objections, but I do support the right of those that hold them to hold them.

Secondly, at the moment, I won't be taking it. Why? Because as of last week, the advice from my doctor was it's probably a good idea but that they're still awaiting detailed data on the effect on compromised immune systems. Due to the nature of the vaccines, it's probably safe, and if that's confirmed, I'll take it. If. And when.

Thirdly, it violates a supremely important principle: we do not force medical procedures, especially invasive ones, on anybody that has the mental capacity to understand the issue, and it's implications. And capacity is presumed to exist, unless it can be proven, probably to a court, that it does not. That right to refuse exists even where it might be the only thing capable of saving the refusenik's life. Like a transplant. Or chemotherapy.

Not only is that morally right, but pragmatically right, for the avoidance of "thin end of wedge" or "slippery slope" issues.

If we allow forced vaccination now, does it open the door for later decisions where someone in power decides that some or all of us need some other forced medical procedure that isn't so benign. Be very careful what precedents you set.

Of course, while I'm entitled to refuse treatment even when it's beneficial to me, the other side of the coin is when doing so is detrimental to others.

It may be the case that refusing vaccination is our right, but has consequences. For example, right now, France has somewhat reopened it's borders to some travellers from the UK, providing they have a recent negative test. The consequence of refusing a test, and perhaps the next stage is if you aren't vaccinated, is refusal of entry permission. That could potentially be extended to, oh, refusal of right of entry to shops. Don't like not being allowed in? Either get vaccinated, or order for home delivery.

It's not a good idea to force medical procedures on the unwilling, but society does have a right to protect itself from those that won't take steps to protect everyone.

I'm not aware of a religious objection to a vaccine - blood transfusions yes, foetal stem cells gleaned from abortion yes, but objecting to a vaccine? Not come across that one personally. I'm willing to bet that any religious population with that as their argument is probably small in the case of these covid vaccines.

Re heard immunity. Mutations is the issue while the heard can stop a major outbreak and spread escalation, the issue is if enough people are not vaccinated that strains can propagate sufficiently, even at a small level to become either drug resistant or worse mutate in such a way as to become more virulent/render the vaccine ineffective. Not all mutations/strains will do this, but the bigger the population they can take root in the bigger the chance and the risk.

If we were talking about a reemergence of say smallpox, or say something really nasty like ebola, but there was a vaccine I'm pretty sure people would say it was right to mandate people get vaccinated and pretty quickly too. I'd also put money on the same objectors being quick to get a cholera vaccine if an outbreak started and they got to see the effects in front of them. My relatives were dead against all this stuff until my uncle got covid a while back and had a stay in hospital on a ventilator and is now still not recovered fully. Yeah, anti-vax away in your idealogies. The reality bites hard though when you're the unlucky ones to get it.

[treacle1]

Pretty easy decision if you ask me - listen to the science.

Look at South Korea, New Zealand, Singapore heck even China and what they did to keep it under control. A huge initial lockdown until cases are in the handful of numbers and then the test and trace can get to work properly. Then small local lockdowns being the new normal when there is one case (not 10,000 cases), test and trace the case to isolate contacts and then open back up quickly. You can maintain a semi-normal economy and way of life like this and they have done in the countries I mentioned. Our chance to do it was with the first lockdown but we didn't implement an effective test and trace with the time that bought us. Now we're back to square one and need a massive lockdown to buy us time again to get test and trace working effectively. If we don't lockdown then lots of people will die, exponentially if our hospitals get overwhelmed. That would cause widespread (and unpredictable) disruption to the economy too. So either way the economy is dead. If we don't want lots of people to die and many more to have long-term damage to their lungs and bodies then we have to listen to the science this time. We're back to where we were in March/April so let's hope the same mistakes are not made again, we can't afford to.

Exactly this, but is seems far worse than March.

[ik9000]

Exactly this, but is seems far worse than March.

yup and the chaos of B****t to go with it.

[g8ina]

Sadly Ive had to clean this thread too. Please keep it civil, lets not have any further mentions of Hitler, fascism or antivaxxer vs vaxxer hype.

[Saracen999]

I'm not aware of a religious objection to a vaccine - blood transfusions yes, foetal stem cells gleaned from abortion yes, but objecting to a vaccine? Not come across that one personally. I'm willing to bet that any religious population with that as their argument is probably small in the case of these covid vaccines.

.....

If we were talking about a reemergence of say smallpox, or say something really nasty like ebola, but there was a vaccine I'm pretty sure people would say it was right to mandate people get vaccinated and pretty quickly too. I'd also put money on the same objectors being quick to get a cholera vaccine if an outbreak started and they got to see the effects in front of them. My relatives were dead against all this stuff until my uncle got covid a while back and had a stay in hospital on a ventilator and is now still not recovered fully. Yeah, anti-vax away in your idealogies. The reality bites hard though when you're the unlucky ones to get it.

There are religions with objections to vaccines but yes, pretty small groups, as I understand it.

I sympathise with your Uncle's experience, and would point out that anti-vax is not my ideology. My only reservation is currently on medical advice. My concern is about forced vaccination, because if that, what forced medical intervention to we allow next? Society does, as I said, have a right to protect itself against those that won't (without mdical reason) vaccinate, though. Perhaps, via forced isolation.

[adidan]

We should be given the choice - take a safety verified vaccine or volunteer on a Covid ward.

People who don't believe vaccines work shouldn't have an issue with that.

[ik9000]

There are religions with objections to vaccines but yes, pretty small groups, as I understand it.

I sympathise with your Uncle's experience, and would point out that anti-vax is not my ideology. My only reservation is currently on medical advice. My concern is about forced vaccination, because if that, what forced medical intervention to we allow next? Society does, as I said, have a right to protect itself against those that won't (without mdical reason) vaccinate, though. Perhaps, via forced isolation.

anti vaxer wasn't aimed at you, nor anyone per say.

[ik9000]

Sadly Ive had to clean this thread too. Please keep it civil, lets not have any further mentions of Hitler, fascism or antivaxxer vs vaxxer hype.

Well as one of those being called a fascist by a misguided poster I see his quotes are still readable but my responses have been removed - despite there being nothing nasty in them that I can recall other than simple logic and facts. I'm not sure why the need to "clean" those. Was there more today I didn't see? Removing posts just makes subsequent comments not make sense. If some dunce wants to use words like fascist that they clearly don't understand and apply them around incorrectly, well it just acts to highlight their ignorance and serves to further undermine their credibility! If you must edit posts at least leave a note to say "mod edited" - you are adapting people's words and that should be noted as such.

edit removing entire posts also screws up the hyperlinking on text quotes as those are numbered based on post position in the thread. There is some comedy jumping around to the wrong posts now possible by clicking on the quote reference links.

[sventz]

Well here are my 2 cents since i live in Greece(i bet most have heard of the Greek miracle on our sucess in the first outbreak of covid19...).Yes the virus is dangerous.Yes it kills.Yes its highly contageous.Those are the facts.But lets go to what we've learned from it so far...since i like on one of Greece's tourist atraction island i've came to notice one thing this summer...there were plenty of covid patients this summer over here but due to the climate and heat most of them never even had a symptom,which means they went through covid without even knowing and if it wasn't for the test they still wouldn't know...many people that tested positive for covid once ,went on later on to get covid again (a friend passed covid 2 times-doctors said it was a mutation of covid that he got the second time).Now to the conclusion...if only we all wore masks when we go out and washed our hands as our parents instructed us when we were kids there would be no need for strict lockdowns,no "military law" lock in house from 22:00-05:00 etc...but in a world of "Carens",flatearthers etc many goverments do things that help nobody just to hold the numbers down.if they are right or wrong will be decided in the future when we have all facts on the table

[matts-uk]

Well as one of those being called a fascist by a misguided poster I see his quotes are still readable but my responses have been removed - despite there being nothing nasty in them that I can recall other than simple logic and facts.

As the subject of moderation I would like (you) to be clear about this. I did not call anyone a fascist. I said I found Hexus slightly right of centre, compared to my own left of centre politics. I find the views of some of my own family right of centre too but I wouldn't call them fascists either.

I am not going to apologise for being against demographic prejudices and giving a damn about the history of human rights in Europe.

I'm not sure why the need to "clean" those. Was there more today I didn't see?

Yes. On a thread inviting, "what are the best, or worst, Corona stories or conspiracy theories you guys have heard of." I mentioned some of the absurd home remedies that have been proposed. Apparently the most famous of those is too offensive to mention on Hexus; though perfectly fine for the BBC lunchtime news to ridicule.

Removing posts just makes subsequent comments not make sense.

I am ambivalent to moderators deleting my posts. A risk I accept when I choose to post on a forum. I am less happy about being denied a right to reply when threads are locked shortly after I have been directly quoted.

If some dunce wants to use words like fascist that they clearly don't understand and apply them around incorrectly, well it just acts to highlight their ignorance and serves to further undermine their credibility!

Once again, the only time I have used the word 'fascist' on this board is within this post. Similarly, I wouldn't accuse anyone of being a 'dunce' without knowing the level and circumstances of their education. I am not quite so ignorant as to believe I can or should make extreme judgements on the back of an internet conversation.

[ik9000]

matts SFAIK you weren't the one calling people fascist. That was chockimon who literally used the word because I suggested people too thick/stubborn to accept a scientifically validated vaccine might need to be either compelled to take it, or else somehow segregated due to the net health risk large swathes of unvaccinated people pose to the overall society. It's a complete misapplication of the word and I pointed this out, but this attempt at an educational lesson was lost in the batch moderation cull. Vaccination relies on mass participation, it's not like say choosing to drink alcohol or not. It cannot be equated to the same individual choice.

Again, this is the issue with sterilising forum threads rather than moderating individual lines of content with an explanation why - it just leads to a lot of confusion and disjointed comments where other people then get the wrong end of the stick about who has said what, when, and to whom.

edit, unless you're trying to say you are chokimon in which case...?