Hifi buffs...

[Howard]

Gold*

[bigblue]

Right, against my better judgement I'm back again

As far as the testing of the cables went, when the missus changed the cables I had no idea what she was connecting. I didn't just get her to change the cables for me because I'm lazy ! Well, I am lazy but that's beside the point.

Fair enough, it's not a exactly a lab test and it could only be one of 4 cables but that's about as accurate as I could get it, or felt the need to make it I have cables from the same manufacturer, worth £10, 20, 30 and £90 quid. I used an HDCD Jewel album (only bought it for sound quality, honest guv). When she connected either the cheapy or the pricy one then I could usually identify them. When she went with one of the 2 mid priced ones I could usually tell it was one of them but hands up, I couldn't tell one from the other. On occasion I also thought one of them was the cheapy. Every time the premium one was connected though I could identify it. Maybe some folks will argue it wasn't better, just different, and I can understand that arguement, but to ME anyway the sound was better.

I'm aware of all those links where people say quality of cables doesn't make a difference, but then I'm also aware of recommendations on cables from people within the hi-fi trade and from the hi-fi press. I've read elsewhere that seemingly these people are all in on the whole big con. If they are it baffles me as to why I guy I know in hifi retail has about £1500 of cables. You'd think he'd know better. I certainly would

It looks to me that Blue Jeans Cable use one brand of cable for each item (and one brand for a lot of their stock) so surely it's in their best interests to say there isn't much difference between cables ? There are a lot of British cable companies who say them same. I've bought from a few of them ! Quite often though, they start selling premium versions of their own stuff.

As far as buying speakers instead of cables, well, wholeheartedly agreed. But I have a fairly nice set of speakers and I couldn't upgrade them anywhere near as easily as I could (and did) upgrade my cables. It was a fairly inexpensive experiment to try and I could have taken them back if I didn't like them.

If you had a £3000 PC and someone said to you that here's something you can improve your system with, it's not totally proven, but it'll only cost you £50, I'm sure some of you would give it a try. If it seemed to you to work, you'd stick with it, regardless of some saying "here's why it doesn't".

I'm not in the slightest arguing about digital cables as I use fairly basic HDMI and DVI leads. I even use the one that came in the box with my monitor I have fairly modest speaker cable as well, but it's more interconnects I disagree about.

I also appreciate there's very much a case of diminishing returns after a certain price point. I've well and truly hit my ceiling on them so I'll never be guilty of spending £100's on one.

Therefore all I'm arguing about is that TO ME some cables do make a difference to the sound. I'm aware I may be wrong, as I'm aware I could be wrong about anything, but I'm satisfied. I can't prove what I hear (or what I think I hear) but at the end of the day I'll stick with what makes me happy. I'm currently having a cuppa, and it's not as good as the last one I had. I can't show you any benchmarks to prove it's less good but it's still my opinion

One of my mates bought a very expensive PC system from Evesham but I didn't go telling him that he could have got the same stuff for way less money. He was incredibly happy and I didn't want to burst his bubble. Same with me, I'm happy with me cables, leave me alone you swines

If I wasn't being told I'm gullible, well the statement that...

you could flog all your existing cables to some other gullible person and actually make money

...kinda suggests differently. If I did flog them, I'd lose rather a lot on them. So I can't win either way

And 5lab, gimme a break, on top of wasting my money on cables I'm a smarmy git as well. 'Fraid so, a golfer too *awaits abuse*

Cheers !

[iranu]

When she connected either the cheapy or the pricy one then I could usually identify them.

That is good - it shows that one is better constructed than the other, which is what you would hope for if you pay more.

When she went with one of the 2 mid priced ones I could usually tell it was one of them but hands up, I couldn't tell one from the other. On occasion I also thought one of them was the cheapy.

Again it shows how easy it is to be lead (no pun intended) by sales staff by "upgrading" from £10 to £30. The trick is to find a manufacturer who has been proven to make a quality cable and not worry how low the price is. Soldering is not that hard - if I was going to go hi-fi nuts again I'd have a friend make my cables for me.

I'm aware of all those links where people say quality of cables doesn't make a difference

That should read price instead of quality. If you bought £100 of cable and it wasn't properly soldered it would be of bad quality, the trick is to get the quality but not pay the silly prices.

If they are it baffles me as to why I guy I know in hifi retail has about £1500 of cables. You'd think he'd know better.

Engage rant drive - People who work in hi-fi shops that have access to cut-price goods will always have uber gear, it's the reason they work there. They are often idiots. They swallow the hi-fi press hook, line and sinker. They are the "my wad is bigger than your wad types" who have very little scientific/physical/electrical/engineering knowledge and you can often hear them spout their crap industry suedo language at the unsuspecting merely to sound impressive. These types are in all walks of life - my favourite one is the mountain bike guru who spouts rubbish about titanium, which is great cos I like to show them up for what they are infront of their potential customers/friends. Dis-engage rant drive.

I also appreciate there's very much a case of diminishing returns after a certain price point. I've well and truly hit my ceiling on them so I'll never be guilty of spending £100's on one.

Yay! And there you have the proof. Not sure how much your hi-fi cost in total but that is the absolute limit for the price of a cable imho. The deminishing line curve (and it's a shallow curve) stops at @ £100 and that is for the most esoteric (gotta love them hi-fi mag words) system.

I am pleased that you have found what you are looking for, however (puts tongue in cheek) I didn't think your cable review was particularly good. Where were the lines such as

"the treble exuded a true sparkle", "Bass was tight and firm yet exhilorating without being overpowering", "el cheapo cable did not have the clarity nor the oomph (measured in oomphas) of the more expensive cable which in comparison delivered a much wider soundfield giving a wonderful, more expansive experience to the listener" (takes tongue out of cheek)

[bigblue]

That should read price instead of quality

Ah, very true.

People who work in hi-fi shops that have access to cut-price goods will always have uber gear

True to an extent. I've worked for golf companies and have then spent small fortunes on competitiors products and not received a penny off. The hifi guy I refer to is a pretty knowledgeable dude (to me anyway) and I think this is what he's spent on cables, not what they're worth at retail

I like to show them up for what they are infront of their potential customers/friends.

Naughty Seriously, I've had people try to do that to me when I worked in retail and you just have to smile and take it, even when the customer doesn't have a clue. I appreciate you know what you're talking about, but trust me, many people don't ! Didn't bother me, but then that's probably cos I didn't spout crap (I've never sold hifi !). I can see why you'd do it with a bull"talker" but there is sometimes a reason for it. Maybe that's what he's been told to tell folk. This is probably why when I'm in Comet and the guy is telling me that LCD's have a better pic than CRT on SD footage I just smile politely

Years ago on a golf forum I frequented a guy was on saying how he'd spoken to me about a forthcoming club launch and I didn't have a clue, I didn't know what he was talking about and he'd put me straight. Much as I was desperate to I couldn't go on the site and explain that I'd tried said item 6 months previously, had a customised one on order and I was only keeping my gob shut cos I'd been told to.

So please, look after yourself, and each other, and be nice to sales assistants.

Back to the regular programming...

didn't think your cable review was particularly good

Ah right, sorry
Hmmm, well with the Ixos 1 the bass was as flat as a Portugese forward after an opponents shoe lace caught him, but with the Silver Spiral it was as full and rounded as Beyonce's posterior.

That the sort of thing you're after ?

[Clunk]

Beyonce's posterior.

That the sort of thing you're after ?

Aye.

[heathster]

Don't stop, I'm enjoying this

[Rave]

As far as the testing of the cables went, when the missus changed the cables I had no idea what she was connecting. I didn't just get her to change the cables for me because I'm lazy ! Well, I am lazy but that's beside the point.
<snip>
Every time the premium one was connected though I could identify it.

O.K. then, well I'm sorry I accused you of not even bothering to do an objective test. Your test is still far from scientific though- a proper test is 'double blind' in that the person swapping the cables doesn't know which is which so they have no way of intimating to the listener which is which- I expect you know your girlfriend very well and thus you might be able to pick up subtle non-verbal signals. Also ideally you should do an ABX test- listen to cable A, then listen to cable B (without knowing what they are of course) then listen to cable X and try to identify whether it's cable A or B. I'd say the cable swapper could fairly effectively randomise this test by flipping coins. See how many times you get it right; if the trend over several tests is below 60% accuracy and falling, then realistically there's no audible difference.

Anyway, you have at least made an effort, and have remained remarkably calm in the face of my ranting, so I shall hector you no more.

I'm aware of all those links where people say quality of cables doesn't make a difference, but then I'm also aware of recommendations on cables from people within the hi-fi trade and from the hi-fi press.

O.K., well, I at various times have read various Hi-Fi mags. What Lie-Fi is just a complete joke; their reviews are entirely subjective, there's absolutely no lab testing of equiptment at all. They keep on recommending £200 mains cables as 'an extremely cost effective upgrade', and come up with all sorts of utter crap about digital cables- the classic line was that a particular cable 'smooths screen movement'. So, a knowledge of even the slightest bit of hi-fi science is in no way a prerequisite for becoming a hi-fi journalist.

However, Hi-Fi choice used to be pretty good (they still had their fair share of cranks, including a bloke who swore by green pen on CD edges and similar Belt-esque rubbish), but their lab tests of equiptment were good and their listening tests were properly done- I.E. double blind. I haven't read it in ages so I don't know if they're still as good.

As for Hi-Fi retailers- again there's no guarantee that they know what they're talking about; they could have grown up reading What Lie-Fi and then decided that a career in hi-fi retail was for them. How are they going to know their arse from their elbow then? You also have to remember that cables are an enormously high margin product for retailers, they can easily make more money selling you a £20 cable than a £120 component.

It looks to me that Blue Jeans Cable use one brand of cable for each item (and one brand for a lot of their stock) so surely it's in their best interests to say there isn't much difference between cables ?

Nah, there are a few items where they list (say) Canare and Belden cables for the same application, and list the strengths and weaknesses of both. In any case, Belden make some bloody good stuff; certainly plenty of 'name brand' cables have been discovered to contain standard Belden cable underneath all the fancy braids etc.

If you had a £3000 PC and someone said to you that here's something you can improve your system with, it's not totally proven, but it'll only cost you £50, I'm sure some of you would give it a try.

I'd ask them to....you guessed it....benchmark it for me.

[bigblue]

Ah, fair play then.

I get what you're saying about the testing. Totally unscientific on my behalf, but about the best I could do without TRULY p'ing of the missus ! You did stir my curiosity which is always a good thing.

Guess I didn't look enough at the Blue Jeans website, and I do admire their stance.

If I may rant for a mo... I get what you mean about What Hi-Fi. The main thing that bugs me about it though is... the Richer Sounds ad I appreciate they sometimes have decent deals but every single one of the "exclusive" offers I was interested in ALWAYS seemed to just run out before I got there. They always DID have a few alternatives though, funnily enough.
Apart from the time when I phoned them just after opening on the day the mag hit the shelves regarding a pair of MS speakers. They initially denied all knowledge of the offer. Then I offered to bring the mag round. I was then told I'd better be quick as there was 1 pair only in stock. Then when I said I'd be there in 5 minutes I was told that if I wanted the speakers (floorstanders) I'd "better bring a wheelbarrow". Nah, I'll just bring a mate. Then when I got there they could only find one, etc, etc. They finally found the other and that was the offer finished, 15 mins after the mag hit the shelves. Hmmm.

Hi-Fi choice are still pretty good but still maybe a little elitist. I feel like a fraud reading it as I don't have 5k to spend on some monoblocs.

As far as retailers go, I feel I'm lucky in who I deal with. Since I've been going to the same place for a while I always get a decent deal. More importantly I always get a decent demo. I'm not daft, although I know they're there to make dosh I still feel that they give fairly genuine advice then let me make my mind up. That's all that I can ask for. Oh, and a cuppa sometimes helps. Hmmm, I must stop going on about tea in my posts. Anyhoo...

Thanks for the all the info suggested to me, I genuinely appreciate it. If you see me flogging off Ixos cable by the boatload in Smartshoppers you have permission to gloat

Cheers !

[5lab]

ok i've finally got a better example. power supplies. you can't see your power supply, unless its knackered, you wont know the difference between any 2 psus. theres no benchmarks on your pc that can proove a difference, other than noise, and most of them are massively over-specced (shuttles can get away with 250W, i'm sure all that extra air in a large case doesn't use 350W). still folk buy them. a good psu wont save you against a power surge, theres no excuse really.

[Robert]

No but it will improve system stability and coupled with a good Belkin surge protector you're sorted.

[spiral out]

maybe the mains cable that i was using was better quality than the old cable you used? i dunno, but a few of us did the test and none of us could spot any difference. they both sounded pretty fantastic (well they would). i still use the bi-wire silver anniversary stuff today, but not because its any better, because it sounds the same, and it came free with my speakers. ill be moving the room round soon and ill have to do large runs of cable, so its mains cable for me. £10 vs around £150+...its a no brainer.

It was some other bi wire cable from QED that i got free with my speakers that retailed at around the same price as the the silver anniversary. It had better mid clarity but lacked bass.

[5lab]

No but it will improve system stability and coupled with a good Belkin surge protector you're sorted.

pff. i've had systems running 24x7 on a ebuyer job-that-came-with-a-£10-case without problem..

[Rave]

ok i've finally got a better example. power supplies. you can't see your power supply, unless its knackered, you wont know the difference between any 2 psus. theres no benchmarks on your pc that can proove a difference, other than noise, and most of them are massively over-specced (shuttles can get away with 250W, i'm sure all that extra air in a large case doesn't use 350W). still folk buy them. a good psu wont save you against a power surge, theres no excuse really.

http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=1359

[RECOiL™]

Can anyone recommend a budget but nice price set of floor standing wooden speakers.

[Clunk]

pff. i've had systems running 24x7 on a ebuyer job-that-came-with-a-£10-case without problem..

its when you start to put cheap power supplies under constant stress thats when they show what they are made of. ive had a cheap psu take out cpu, motherboard, ram and graphics card a few years back..not good. im not sure how this relates to hi fi cables though?

[Taz]

Can anyone recommend a budget but nice price set of floor standing wooden speakers.

Of course it depends on what you consider 'budget'. I would consider a pair of Mission M52's - straightfoward 2-way HiFi speaker. A bargain at Harrow Audio at the moment:

http://www.harrowaudiohifi.co.uk/vie...kCode=h63mi098

These are discontinued but should make a fairly decent noise. More importantly, what are the other bits in your HiFi, particularly the source (which is the most important element of a HiFi system)?