* Star Citizen *

[outwar6010]

The costs of developing a modern game are somewhat higher than in the old wireframe days! (Elite only cost about £2000 to make actually, which is about £6000 in today's money, not 2.4million).

I meant elite dangerous

[kalniel]

I meant elite dangerous

In which case other reply applies - Elite Dangerous was not crowd funded as such - $2.4m is just a small portion of the total development cost of that game, and it's a much smaller scale game than other blockbusters or Star Citizen.

[Ttaskmaster]

In which case other reply applies - Elite Dangerous was not crowd funded as such - $2.4m is just a small portion of the total development cost of that game, and it's a much smaller scale game than other blockbusters or Star Citizen.

Original total Dev budget - £8m.
D. Braben, Eurogamer interview Sept 2014.

£5m of that was FD's funding, with 3 coming from KS.
The rest has been game sales, AFAIK, which passed 500,000 units in (I think) February this year.

Apr 2015 saw £11.4m net profit on the balance sheet, with their Barclay's overdraft reduced from 3m to 1m.

What they now spend on future expansions and maintenance, I don't know, but they're on track at least. Delays tend to be a few hours, or days, rather than the *shrug* and "Meh..." from RSI.

[GuidoLS]

"Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien": The best is the enemy of the good. Voltaire worked that out a few hundred years ago and it is still true now.

An upcoming patch in Elite will allow landing on a planet, and more stuff will be added over time. I think the overall aim (to make a great space game) is the same, the difference is that in Elite something is shipping now. Shipping something good, now is better than shipping the best, never. It doesn't change the ability to have vision, just how you get there.

Really, $90M is not chicken feed. Assume a developer costs you $100K per year to hire including cost of office space and equipment (game devs aren't that well paid so it seems a fair guess). That would mean 900 man years of effort for the money. That really is a lot, partly because development doesn't scale that well: you can't make a baby in one month by getting 9 women pregnant and software often works the same way. The way out of that is to create some sort of playable game ASAP, and grow the rest around it.

So in the long run I wouldn't be surprised if Elite ends up the bigger game simply because they have better execution and a proper revenue model of selling a product.

I would love to be wrong, but SC just seems to be a Daikatana for the 21st century, all vision and no progress. At some point I expect panic to set in and something to ship that fails to meet expectations, and the longer the delay the bigger those expectations will be.

There have already been FTC complaints here in the US, and there's a class action lawsuit in the works. I had considered backing this game at one point, but decided I didn't really like the way he went from Kickstarter over to his own site for donations - at that point, he really removed the protections that going through Kickstarter offered. While not wishing anything bad on anyone, I seriously have my doubts that if the game gets released, it won't be a finished product, and it already won't be the game that was offered from the beginning.

[ZaO]

If E: D then it cost an awful lot more than $2.4m, the crowdfunding was only a small proportion of the actual cost of the game. Not to mention one small team producing a single-aspect game is quite different from a multi-aspect game involving several very large development studios.

I actually had no idea what E.D costed to make, until I saw some more replies in this thread. And yep, I agree.

Yeah, but you can actually play ED right now, though. SC miss deadlines like Stormtroopers miss shots at Rebels!

Plus ED are coming out with content, as originally stated.
They already have 400 billion star systems to explore and we're slowly getting everything else. Slowly, because it takes time to set up and test 400 billion of everything, I expect.

"Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien": The best is the enemy of the good. Voltaire worked that out a few hundred years ago and it is still true now.

An upcoming patch in Elite will allow landing on a planet, and more stuff will be added over time. I think the overall aim (to make a great space game) is the same, the difference is that in Elite something is shipping now. Shipping something good, now is better than shipping the best, never. It doesn't change the ability to have vision, just how you get there.

Really, $90M is not chicken feed. Assume a developer costs you $100K per year to hire including cost of office space and equipment (game devs aren't that well paid so it seems a fair guess). That would mean 900 man years of effort for the money. That really is a lot, partly because development doesn't scale that well: you can't make a baby in one month by getting 9 women pregnant and software often works the same way. The way out of that is to create some sort of playable game ASAP, and grow the rest around it.

So in the long run I wouldn't be surprised if Elite ends up the bigger game simply because they have better execution and a proper revenue model of selling a product.

I would love to be wrong, but SC just seems to be a Daikatana for the 21st century, all vision and no progress. At some point I expect panic to set in and something to ship that fails to meet expectations, and the longer the delay the bigger those expectations will be.

I don't feel the same. Let's not forget that games are art. Art takes as long as it takes. there's too much of rushing out unfinished things in this day and age. Take as long as it takes to release your masterpiece. Anyone creative will understand this. The typical modern consumer won't. No offense intended towards anyone, not judging or calling people anything, but that's my feeling on it.

Btw, I'm sad this thread now looks to be turning into "E.D vs SC". I hope we can steer away from that, quickly. I support both games and am very happy to see one of my favourite genres finally making a return. I just think E.D lacks a lot and is more simplistic than SC. It bores me so much when I try to play it. I don't think SC is necessarily better, just more my thing. But I do believe that SC requires more work for the complications involved. I would prefer to wait for it to be what it's meant to be before I play it. They've already stated they will be adding more to it after it's come out, also - procedurally generated planets etc.. And btw, I'm not sure SC has been in development for as long as some people think it has..

Now let us praise the return of "space sim" type games

[Ttaskmaster]

Let's not forget that games are art. Art takes as long as it takes. there's too much of rushing out unfinished things in this day and age. Take as long as it takes to release your masterpiece. Anyone creative will understand this.

I'd normally be with you on that... except Chris Roberts has a history of delays, often due to feature-creep. Some of his other works were thus delayed and Freelancer suffered first a year of delays, then after he left and new owners Microsoft seriously cut it down it was still another 2 more years past CR's originally slated date... If he'd stayed in charge, we'd likely never have seen it and he'd be coding to this day, adding things.

I'm all for creation, but don't start giving the public dates for release, even a "maybe, probably, perhaps" unless you are certain you'll be very close.

So far I don't think a single SC release has been when they said it would and that's what drove me away...

[ZaO]

I'd normally be with you on that... except Chris Roberts has a history of delays, often due to feature-creep. Some of his other works were thus delayed and Freelancer suffered first a year of delays, then after he left and new owners Microsoft seriously cut it down it was still another 2 more years past CR's originally slated date... If he'd stayed in charge, we'd likely never have seen it and he'd be coding to this day, adding things.

I'm all for creation, but don't start giving the public dates for release, even a "maybe, probably, perhaps" unless you are certain you'll be very close.

So far I don't think a single SC release has been when they said it would and that's what drove me away...

Unexpected things can and often do happen in the creation process. It's extremely hard to predict when anything will be ready, which is why they don't give solid release dates, and only estimates, yet people don't seem to get that. It's not like regular jobs where you just turn up and repeat predicatable tasks everyday. Creativity is a mystical thing and you can't control when it will and won't work. As I said, creative types will understand this and empathise.

As for Chris and the feature creep thing, he addressed this recently and that is why we already have the social module. But of course, people will complain you can't do much with it yet.

The best thing to do when you're creating is ignore people and just do your thing, then release it when it's ready. Its a little different with games as you need to listen to feedback from customers, but this can be a bad thing as much as a good thing. Personally I'd prefer it if they just ignored everyone and just made the game. But, people would lose their minds over that.

[GuidoLS]

Unexpected things can and often do happen in the creation process. It's extremely hard to predict when anything will be ready, which is why they don't give solid release dates, and only estimates, yet people don't seem to get that. It's not like regular jobs where you just turn up and repeat predicatable tasks everyday. Creativity is a mystical thing and you can't control when it will and won't work. As I said, creative types will understand this and empathise.

As for Chris and the feature creep thing, he addressed this recently and that is why we already have the social module. But of course, people will complain you can't do much with it yet.

The best thing to do when you're creating is ignore people and just do your thing, then release it when it's ready. Its a little different with games as you need to listen to feedback from customers, but this can be a bad thing as much as a good thing. Personally I'd prefer it if they just ignored everyone and just made the game. But, people would lose their minds over that.

Ignoring the consumer is a (lousy) viable option *IF* you're the one footing the bill for production. (Un)fortunately, depending on your point of view, that's NOT an option when you're being paid up front for something. And this passed being small change 90 million dollars ago. I've got no dog in this hunt, but people like Derek Smart aren't going to be going away any time soon - and he's developing something of a following on this.

[DanceswithUnix]

I don't feel the same. Let's not forget that games are art. Art takes as long as it takes. there's too much of rushing out unfinished things in this day and age. Take as long as it takes to release your masterpiece. Anyone creative will understand this. The typical modern consumer won't. No offense intended towards anyone, not judging or calling people anything, but that's my feeling on it.

I only half agree with you there. The concept is art, the 3d modelling is art. But, there is a whole ton of client design, server design, network protocol design to tie them together and that is engineering, not art. It has to be robust, it has to meet performance targets, and it shouldn't be late.

Most of the issues here are detailed in a book called "The Mythical Man Month", and that was an old book when I read it 25 years ago. The whole modern development methodology of Agile is designed to avoid these sorts of issues and make sure that at all stages you have *something* that people can try.

No ED vs SC sentiment here, they just seem to be good examples of how to and how not to run a project. I shall form an opinion of SC as a game when I can play it.

Shame that ED bores you, but it certainly is one of those games that you have to be in the mood for it. The fact that plodding around the universe is so central to the game means if the "whoa I'm flying a space ship" aspect doesn't interest you then you won't ever enjoy it. But that is the game, because lets face it in real life humans don't and can't fly space ships it has to be done by computers. Throw in some robot battle droids, because what idiot would risk their own neck, and you could argue that Tower Defense is a more realistic space sim as flight between levels, targetting and combat are all automated and all the player does is set high level strategy. But it is a game, so I want to fly the ship and aim the lasers myself

Was going to play some WoW, but I think I can feel the call of the HOTAS stick after saying all that

[ZaO]

Ignoring the consumer is a (lousy) viable option *IF* you're the one footing the bill for production. (Un)fortunately, depending on your point of view, that's NOT an option when you're being paid up front for something. And this passed being small change 90 million dollars ago. I've got no dog in this hunt, but people like Derek Smart aren't going to be going away any time soon - and he's developing something of a following on this.

That's why I said it's a bit different when it's a game. If games are rushed, we complain they're a mess. If the proper time is taken, we complain it's taking too long. The thing that people need to understand is that they're not on the board of directors when they put a little bit of money towards a game. The way people demand so much these days is sickening to me. We're all spoiled little brats. Derek Smart is also a joke trying to make some publicity for himself and his crappy games. I don't think the majority of SC supporters are with him, clearly...

I only half agree with you there. The concept is art, the 3d modelling is art. But, there is a whole ton of client design, server design, network protocol design to tie them together and that is engineering, not art. It has to be robust, it has to meet performance targets, and it shouldn't be late.

Most of the issues here are detailed in a book called "The Mythical Man Month", and that was an old book when I read it 25 years ago. The whole modern development methodology of Agile is designed to avoid these sorts of issues and make sure that at all stages you have *something* that people can try.

No ED vs SC sentiment here, they just seem to be good examples of how to and how not to run a project. I shall form an opinion of SC as a game when I can play it.

Shame that ED bores you, but it certainly is one of those games that you have to be in the mood for it. The fact that plodding around the universe is so central to the game means if the "whoa I'm flying a space ship" aspect doesn't interest you then you won't ever enjoy it. But that is the game, because lets face it in real life humans don't and can't fly space ships it has to be done by computers. Throw in some robot battle droids, because what idiot would risk their own neck, and you could argue that Tower Defense is a more realistic space sim as flight between levels, targetting and combat are all automated and all the player does is set high level strategy. But it is a game, so I want to fly the ship and aim the lasers myself

Was going to play some WoW, but I think I can feel the call of the HOTAS stick after saying all that

Again, this is why the release dates are estimated release dates. Some people just can't get their head around what that means.

And yes, we'll all be able to form better opinions when SC is out, or at least when we have the Persistent Universe Beta. I think a lot of people are going to be gob smacked when the final release hits.

[DanceswithUnix]

Again, this is why the release dates are estimated release dates. Some people just can't get their head around what that means.

I think on this forum at least most of us get it perfectly well. I have plenty of experience *setting* release dates for software, and yes it is hard, and yes they are an estimate, but at the end of the day leaving your customers waiting is insulting them and that only works for so long.

[cheesemp]

Ignoring the consumer is a (lousy) viable option *IF* you're the one footing the bill for production. (Un)fortunately, depending on your point of view, that's NOT an option when you're being paid up front for something. And this passed being small change 90 million dollars ago. I've got no dog in this hunt, but people like Derek Smart aren't going to be going away any time soon - and he's developing something of a following on this.

Derek Smart has done nothing but moan about starcitizen as he just wants to use it as a platform to advertise his awful Line of Defence game. Personally i'd rather trust the guy who delivered games like the wing commander series (review of WC4 here) than the guy who delivered this and this.

If you really want to know what star citizen is like wait for one of the free fly weekends they have. Then you can see its something special. Or alternatively just wait a few months as we should have squadron 42 and arena commander 2 out by then.

[ZaO]

I think on this forum at least most of us get it perfectly well. I have plenty of experience *setting* release dates for software, and yes it is hard, and yes they are an estimate, but at the end of the day leaving your customers waiting is insulting them and that only works for so long.

I dunno mate. I make music, and I don't give a damn what anyone thinks or how long they're waiting. I make what I want to make, the way I want to make it, and I take as long as it takes me to finish it. I seriously give 0 F's what anyone thinks about that. People have pledged to help fund a creative endevour because they have faith in the creator. If you don't have faith, don't back it. They never told us any solid release dates. This game is doing something that has never been done before on this scale and with this much depth and detail. It can't just be made in a couple years. I look at this as art, I don't care what anyone says. Take as long as it takes to make what you intended to make. Don't release it until it's right. If only more devs and publishers did things this way. Maybe games of such high quality like Metal Gear Solid wouldn't be so rare...

Edit: Sorry if that sounds a bit moody, btw. It wasn't my intention I'm just passionate about the subject of creativity.

[GuidoLS]

Derek Smart has done nothing but moan about starcitizen as he just wants to use it as a platform to advertise his awful Line of Defence game. Personally i'd rather trust the guy who delivered games like the wing commander series (review of WC4 here) than the guy who delivered this and this.

If you really want to know what star citizen is like wait for one of the free fly weekends they have. Then you can see its something special. Or alternatively just wait a few months as we should have squadron 42 and arena commander 2 out by then.

Nothing personal, but I don't really care about 20 year old reviews, let along Gamespot reviews, which was a site that was notorious for payola. I also put no stock in YouTube reviews. I've seen enough reviews that were pure lies that I wouldn't believe the truth unless I delivered it. I personally thought WC4 was one of the lower points in the series - it was proof, to me, that just because live action was possible at the time, it wasn't necessarily a good idea. And just because it got a good review doesn't mean that everything he did, or will do, is going to be as good as, or better. For proof, I offer up the Wing Commander movie, and anyone that thinks THAT was any good has no taste, period.

And truth be told, I don't really care about Star Citizen. Yes, Derek Smart has done a lot of moaning. So have more than a few others, and that's all it takes. As I said earlier, I don't wish anyone any ill will at all - I hope the game gets released, and everyone's fantasy about being a space lord comes true. I already know a fair few people that won't, because Mr. Roberts went back on some of the things that were originally slated for the release, and it took the very real threat of a very real lawsuit to make him give them their money back. The simple truth is, all he has to do is get a couple of people that backed the project to question where the money has gone, and the FTC will investigate, because this is a $90million plus project. That's not chump change. And given the shenanigans that happened with Kingdoms of Amalur, the government here is more than a little twitchy about big dollar, publicly funded games.

And he has his couple of people, and the complaint has been made. All I've said is to not hedge any bets at this point. If the FTC smells anything remotely funky, the best people are going to be hoping for is a partial refund check.

They never told us any solid release dates. This game is doing something that has never been done before on this scale and with this much depth and detail.

Per the Kickstarter page, the game was supposed to be released in November of last year... that constitutes solid. Some might say it constitutes contract... and lots of games have been attempted on this scale with this much depth and detail - and they failed, due to feature creep and lack of follow through. The 2 latest, large examples of this were Kingdoms of Amalur, which also had 90+ million dollars invested, and was actually backed by a US State... and TES:O, which just went B2P, and there's no need to speculate on just how much Bethesda spent on it... Aion... Vanguard... Tabula Rasa... no, there have been more than a few that were of that size and scope.

And for right now, it's still vapor, and will be until its released. Alpha/Beta's don't count, no matter how cool they are. It's how Richard Gariott is getting away with keeping Shroud of the Avatar in gimme gimme more money mode - he keeps calling it late alpha/early beta, even though it was more developed and ready for release 18 months ago than most released games are.

Think I'll bow out of this convo at this point - it's unsafe to post anything that doesn't say this is the best thing since the creation of all things, and anyone who disagrees is just a whiner, moaner, or spoiled brat...

[ZaO]

Think I'll bow out of this convo at this point - it's unsafe to post anything that doesn't say this is the best thing since the creation of all things, and anyone who disagrees is just a whiner, moaner, or spoiled brat...

I think what it is, is that people who are following this game get a bit tired of people "invading" (for lack of a better word) SC threads saying this game is a scam etc. I post on another much more active forum about this game, and the majority of the people in the thread there are sick to death of it. It's not exactly something that gets me mad when people do it, and people do have some valid points etc. I just think people could make a different thread to discuss that. People in threads like this one mostly just want to talk about their excitment for the game.

I don't own this thread anyway, so I don't make the rules for it. People can say what they like, but I just tend to have less enthusiasm to debate these things with much effort these days. The game might flop... feature creep... Chris Roberts is a delayer etc etc. I know this... But I just prefer to talk about how awesome things are looking. I'm really excited for this game, and I have a lot of faith in it. I put my money in knowing that it might never happen, but it's clearly not a scam imo, so I'll just kick back and let them make it, enjoying what little pieces we get to see in the meantime. I don't feel the need to tell them what to do. I had faith in them from the start, hence why I backed it. If it's still not out in a couple more years, then I might start thinking differently about it though

So in short, sorry if I've come accross a bit blunt and offended anyone. I'm not mad at anyone here. And that's that

[Ttaskmaster]

The game might flop... feature creep... Chris Roberts is a delayer etc etc. I know this...
I'm really excited for this game, and I have a lot of faith in it. I put my money in knowing that it might never happen
I don't feel the need to tell them what to do. I had faith in them from the start, hence why I backed it. If it's still not out in a couple more years, then I might start thinking differently about it though

I'm of pretty much the same mindset. As I said before, I was quite the gushing fanboy, but what little I have seen has just disappointed me more and more.

I'd much prefer to just be surprised when something comes out, rather than hear lots of possible-maybe dates, which always get missed by weeks. Yes, delays do happen.... but do they happen all the time with everything?

The other danger is that all this hype will die down and people will start forgetting the game entirely. So for that reason alone, RSI might not be able to afford too much of this Magnum Opus, BDSSE, leave-us-alone-to-explore-our-creativity thing...