Christians - A Penny For Your Thoughts.

[Stewart]

1) We need religion to prove a moral framework for life.

Widespread paedophilia in the Catholic Church, to the very highest level, would appear to offer a counter argument to that. Being religious does not make you any more or less moral, because we have the God given gift of free will. (But I agree, that is a reason my friend has given, its more of a moral framework for life, that can be followed even if you don't believe in the virgin birth, etc)

How ironic that it is this God given gift that I use to choose not to accept the concept of there being a creator to give me this gift in the first place.

Also, God will apparently punish me if I use my free will to choose not to believe in him\her\it. Hardly seems fair.

[Stewart]

I do call myself Christian

I do not believe in creation as the Bible tells it.

You're a vegetarian that eats fish, aren't you?

[chuckskull]

a wise man......sadley no longer with us by the name of Bill Hicks once offered this point for disscussion.

"explain Dinosaur fossils"

Discuss.........

And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in his paw. And O the disciples did run a shriekin': 'What a big ****ing lizard, Lord!' But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw and the big lizard became his friend.

[Lee H]

You're a vegetarian that eats fish aren't you?

You mean pescetarian?

[Stewart]

But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw and the big lizard became his friend.

And the Brontosaurus said - thank you Jesus for taking that splinter out of my paw, although to be honest, and its a small point, I'm not sure its actually a paw - probably a foot.

And Jesus said - OMFG! A talking Brontosaurus! Wait till I tell the talking Snake about this, he wont believe it!

And then some overly simplistic moral lesson was learned by all, and really, who needs more than that?

[chuckskull]

And the Brontosaurus said - thank you Jesus for taking that splinter out of my paw, although to be honest, and its a small point, I'm not sure its actually a paw - probably a foot.

And Jesus said - OMFG! A talking Brontosaurus! Wait till I tell the talking Snake about this, he wont believe it!

And then some overly simplistic moral lesson was learned by all, and really, who needs more than that?

[Hans Voralberg]

After all, all it would take is for some slight variations in the laws of physics and we probably wouldn't exist.

Precisely the reason why we spend so much money and effort for more than half a century looking all over the galaxy and havent find a single planet like Earth, it's one of the slight variations of physic that make us here

[father smurf]

most of the old testiment is pinched from sumerian legends anyway.

[autopilot]

Also, God will apparently punish me if I use my free will to choose not to believe in him\her\it. Hardly seems fair.

That's because God is completely and utterly insane and psychopathic. If he was a real person he would be quickly sectioned under the Mental Heath Act never to see the light of day again. He makes Hitler look like Fred Dibnah.

Thats also why the Bible has been constantly rewritten and censored. It's like, "OMG we cant have that in the bible any longer, we are losing credibility. Right then, Thats not the truth anymore, this is whats the truth now". And all the religious people go "Mmmkay".

Sorry, but god hates you and bullies you because you eat an apple. And your kids, and their pets. Be afraid and grovel to him daily because if you can get him to hate you slightly less he might let you into his special place in the sky thats "Just there, because ok".

[Stewart]

My mate goes further than that. Even if you worship him in slightly the wrong way, you burn for ever and a day in the fires of hell.

Muslims for instance - same God, slightly different hats = much burning.

[Blitzen]

No, because people kill each other over religion. People will die for their God, they will kill others for their God. Also, by holding onto pre-scientific views, it prevents, or at least slows down, the advancement of the species.

It holds us back.

Do you really hold the view that billions upon billions of people, in the year 2007, still spending their time shouting at the sky, worshiping mythical beings, has no negative effects on the human race as a whole?

With the greatest respect, people also kill each other over land rights, colour, wealth, intelligence etc etc etc. To blame killing on religion is madness. Some maybe...certainly not the majority.

I fought in Iraq, Bosnia and Sierra leone and it was construde as a religious war....RUBBISH! The way some of these unstable countries are they would fight over absolutely anything.

Like i said, many people gain comfort from having something to believe in. If thats their preference then whats the problem.

I would rather trust my luck on things to pray to rocks and trees. Some people do pray to rock and trees though and if it makes their life easier then why shouldnt they.

Im sorry but i feel you views are very very blinkered.

[MadduckUK]

Why is Odin less valid than the Christian God?

because less people beieve in Odin, thats the way religions work. the "god" thrives on believers, to perpetuate the myths. when everyone forgets the god effectively dies.

Terry Pratchett got it SPOT ON with Small gods.

[MadduckUK]

Like i said, many people gain comfort from having something to believe in. If thats their preference then whats the problem.

nothing, its just when they want to be taken seriously and affect the running of the populous, were not in the dark ages and we dont need that crap affecting daily life anymore

[Stewart]

With the greatest respect, people also kill each other over land rights, colour, wealth, intelligence etc etc etc. To blame killing on religion is madness. Some maybe...certainly not the majority.

They do, but then I never said they didn't. Just that people have done, are at the moment, and will in the future kill over religion - and many other things, yes.

I fought in Iraq, Bosnia and Sierra leone

Then you have bigger balls than me.

Im sorry but i feel you views are very very blinkered.

All I actually said was - Christians, how do you personally come to terms with some of the questions science raises about your religion. Just in a longwinded way.

Are my views any more blinkered than the man who shouts at the sky in the 21st century?

[kalniel]

I suppose what I’m looking for is a hardcore Christian to explain to me, without just saying ‘it says so in this book’, how you balance these things in your mind.

I'm a 'hardcore' Christian I guess, but that doesn't mean I believe the earth is only 6000 years old, measured by our 'years' at any rate.

IMHO the biblical measures of time aren't to be taken literally, but representative more of the general order of things.

I mean, there’s no point having a belief system that, in your own mind at least, doesn’t hold up to some scrutiny.

Well, yes there is really, because if faith was provable then by the very definition of the word it wouldn't be faith

How, for instance, can a grown man, a sensible man, a man with a brain and things, wake up in the morning, look at himself in the mirror, and think ‘My belief system is based on a book, in which there is mentioned a snake… that can talk…’ and then just go about their day?

Just as easily as one people can read a book and assume that every little thing mentioned is as important and as accurate as everything else, when it's all written by different people, in different fragments, translations and whatnot.

What about Norse Gods? Hindu Gods? Egyptian Gods? How can you be happy just putting it down to – I’m right, everybody else is wrong. My God is real, everybody else is deluded.

Who's to say that these gods aren't other cultures ways of describing the same thing? Read about Aslan/Tash for a good analogy.

Why doesn’t God just appear in the sky above Paris, or Rome, or Moscow, or London, and say in a big booming voice – stop arguing, stop killing each other, I am real, here I am, now lets have a bit less of it.

1) It leaves no room for faith 2) It leaves no room for choice. How can we chose to believe regardless of evidence if we've just seen Him infront of us - you can't. Likewise the decision to argue, kill each other etc. is ours alone to make. He would not be a good God if he made up our minds for us.

Why, if God sees everything, does he allow widespread sexual abuse of children by Priests, Vicars etc? Are these not men of God? I know he gave us free will, and that means that some people will exercise this free will to rape children, but surely he could act in some way?

See above. Note that they will not 'get away' with it, nor will the suffering of victims last for an eternity.

Why when he made all the animals on Earth, did he make 11,880 (known) species of Ant? You’d have thought, like, 5 or 6 is plenty. Why did he make parasitical worms that enter the human body via infected water, and cause blindness? Why those things that live at the bottom of the ocean, that are just floating bladders of gas? Was he running out of ideas, or just in a bit of a rush when he made those?

Why not consider that he started life and is happy to let it evolve?

Why did he give us an appendix when it doesn’t do anything? (But does have an explanation as a vestigial organ)

See the answer above.

Why did he make Venus, and then just leave it as a big ball of rock, hot enough to melt lead, that not so much as a microbe can live on?

Because it's pretty to look at?

Why the countless billions of stars, in countess galaxies?

See above. Plus it's fun to find out about stuff, plus we might go there one day.

If he made the Earth for us to live on, why is 2\3rds of it water, when we can not live or breathe in water?

Because we're 2/3rds water and we need it to live, and it's an important part of our evolution as without it we'd have had no protection from the sun and the horribly toxic O2.

Any why do I get a funny feeling that when you really take a good, hard look at everything, there simply is no evidence that he exists or has ever existed, but there is a mountain of evidence supporting alternative theories for everything it is claimed he created?

Because evidence would take away from the choice and faith.

Why do we share 94-99% of our DNA with Chimps? Why have we even got DNA? If we are, in effect, beings that were created (I believe the enlightened view is that men were made from dust and women from a mans rib... sounds great), why do our systems make any sense? Blood circulation, taking in oxygen, liquid water required for life… if God made us, why do we need to make sense? Why does there have to be an explanation of how we are able to live and breathe?

See answer about evolution. Not having an explaination would better suit an atheist view point anyway. I think the body is a fantastic creation - fabulously complex and beautiful - more so the more you understand about the amazing detail that is present as you look at it more closely.

An omnipotent magical being created us, and yet, everything he did we just happen to be able to explain, without the need of the aforementioned omnipotent being.

Erm, no way - we can't even explain 1% of the stuff out there (or in here). That doesn't mean we need God to be able to live with it - I think we will happily explain more of it over time, but I think that it's put there for us to understand. The need for a god is no reason to have a god.

So yeah, I'm a Christian, and a scientist, and they complement each other really well because the more I learn about the world and how we work the more I appreciate His work

[autopilot]

Anyway Stewart, dont listen to much to an American bible basher. Their 'belief' has a lot to do with a dangerously increasing sense of nationalism, rather than just faith itself. "Hey strange foreign dudes that i cant quite understand. This here is gods country, we are the righteous ones put in place to sort you out. Our wrath is gods wrath. Our beloved dubya told us one national TV that god personally instructed him to invade Iraq. See? Haha you fools."

It is not coincidence that the less educated a society is, the more religious they are.

I hate religion, i truly believe its evil more than ever these days.


*Just to add, for any American readers, this is not the case for all Americans. There are many decent decent thinking people in America. But your country has a serious problem.