Christians - A Penny For Your Thoughts.

[Stewart]

Fo shizzle my Christizzles.

Now, I’ve a friend who, bless him, is American. Bless him once more, is a Christian. Thrice bless him, is a young Earth creationist. Now I know that by the time you reduce his IQ by the required amount for these 3 things, he is probably slightly less intelligent than a Dugong \ Manatee.

But the thing is, he’s not a thicko. He’s a very intelligent man, but he believes completely that the Earth is 6000 odd years old. Now, its always fascinated me how Christians, particularly this sort, don’t wake up in the morning and think – hang on, I believe that the Earth is 6000 years old, but it can be proven; proven absolutely, beyond any scientific doubt, that the Earth simply is not 6000 years old.

We know – not think; know, that the Earth is billions of years old.

I suppose what I’m looking for is a hardcore Christian to explain to me, without just saying ‘it says so in this book’, how you balance these things in your mind. I mean, there’s no point having a belief system that, in your own mind at least, doesn’t hold up to some scrutiny.

How, for instance, can a grown man, a sensible man, a man with a brain and things, wake up in the morning, look at himself in the mirror, and think ‘My belief system is based on a book, in which there is mentioned a snake… that can talk…’ and then just go about their day?

Do Christians ever think – if a big man in the sky with magic powers made the heavens and the Earth 6000 years ago, how has the light from objects in the universe greater than 6000 light years away reached us?

Why do rocks, when carbon dated, always seem to come back as billions of years old?

When God said ‘let there be light’ (and there was light!!1!!11!), isn’t it an amazing coincidence that there just happens to be a massive ball of gas in the sky, that by nuclear fusion of hydrogen nuclei into helium, throws out heat and… yes, light.

What about Norse Gods? Hindu Gods? Egyptian Gods? How can you be happy just putting it down to – I’m right, everybody else is wrong. My God is real, everybody else is deluded.

Why doesn’t God just appear in the sky above Paris, or Rome, or Moscow, or London, and say in a big booming voice – stop arguing, stop killing each other, I am real, here I am, now lets have a bit less of it. All we get is David Blaine ****ting in a Perspex box. Now I can appreciate the beauty of that as much as the next man, but its not divine is it?

Why, if God sees everything, does he allow widespread sexual abuse of children by Priests, Vicars etc? Are these not men of God? I know he gave us free will, and that means that some people will exercise this free will to rape children, but surely he could act in some way?

Why when he made all the animals on Earth, did he make 11,880 (known) species of Ant? You’d have thought, like, 5 or 6 is plenty. Why did he make parasitical worms that enter the human body via infected water, and cause blindness? Why those things that live at the bottom of the ocean, that are just floating bladders of gas? Was he running out of ideas, or just in a bit of a rush when he made those?

Why did he give us an appendix when it doesn’t do anything? (But does have an explanation as a vestigial organ)

Why did he make Venus, and then just leave it as a big ball of rock, hot enough to melt lead, that not so much as a microbe can live on?

Why the countless billions of stars, in countess galaxies?

If he made the Earth for us to live on, why is 2\3rds of it water, when we can not live or breathe in water?

Any why do I get a funny feeling that when you really take a good, hard look at everything, there simply is no evidence that he exists or has ever existed, but there is a mountain of evidence supporting alternative theories for everything it is claimed he created?

Why do we share 94-99% of our DNA with Chimps? Why have we even got DNA? If we are, in effect, beings that were created (I believe the enlightened view is that men were made from dust and women from a mans rib... sounds great), why do our systems make any sense? Blood circulation, taking in oxygen, liquid water required for life… if God made us, why do we need to make sense? Why does there have to be an explanation of how we are able to live and breathe?

An omnipotent magical being created us, and yet, everything he did we just happen to be able to explain, without the need of the aforementioned omnipotent being.

Do you ever think about these things? And if so, can I have the answers please, and if you haven’t got the answers () then your own thoughts on the matter are more than welcome.

Many thanks.

[ikonia]

a wise man......sadley no longer with us by the name of Bill Hicks once offered this point for disscussion.

"explain Dinosaur fossils"

Discuss.........

[Blitzen]

I agree with absolutely everything you say...and i could prolly add a few aswell.

The fact is, and im not religious in any way, shape or form, is that religion gives people something to hold onto in times of need. These kinds of things cannot be bought or encouraged, they are just there.
If believing in something that cant possibly be there makes people feel a little better then that can only be a good thing cant it?

How many times in your life, when things are at their very very lowest for you, have you chucked a little prayer upstairs? I'll be willing to bet you have. We all have.
It's not that you think anyone up there is listening. Its the fact that by a 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 to 1 chance there is, you might get a little help so its worth a try.

[Stewart]

If believing in something that cant possibly be there makes people feel a little better then that can only be a good thing cant it?

No, because people kill each other over religion. People will die for their God, they will kill others for their God. Also, by holding onto pre-scientific views, it prevents, or at least slows down, the advancement of the species.

It holds us back.

Do you really hold the view that billions upon billions of people, in the year 2007, still spending their time shouting at the sky, worshiping mythical beings, has no negative effects on the human race as a whole?

[misae]

I am not Christian but it is a matter of perspective.
Why is the speed of light fixed? What is their controlling the force of gravity? Why are we even capable of observing such laws? Why does 1 + 1 = 2?

Why are the anti-religious at times as extreme as those that adhere to religion.

Athiesm is not the light at the end of the tunnel followers of it claim it to be.

What is killing the world and holding us back is greed, lack of empathy, exploitation of others... I am sorry but Athiesm does not fix these problems, nor religion cause them.

[rox0r]

'God' is simply a manifestation of man's inability to explain his own existence. It is a belief borne of our early ignorance and inherant need for reason, purpose and direction.

Faith is good. Blind faith, however, is the cause of the majority of our own suffering and death and will ultimately be the cause of our own demise. Unless of course we are enlightened further at some point down our road to......

[misae]

Oh and the old argument that people kill over religion.. news flash - World War 1 ans World War 2 were not religious wars...

People kill each other over power, love, greed, jealousy, mental illness and other such things...

If you are so against killing do something about the Iraq war because as citizens of this country we have some power to do something about it. Or do you believe that it is OK to kill "some of the time when it is justified"?

Justify it to the 655'000 civilians dead, many women and children.

[Hans Voralberg]

Why is the speed of light fixed? What is their controlling the force of gravity? Why are we even capable of observing such laws? Why does 1 + 1 = 2?

Why are the anti-religious at times as extreme as those that adhere to religion.

Athiesm is not the light at the end of the tunnel followers of it claim it to be.

What is killing the world and holding us back is greed, lack of empathy, exploitation of others... I am sorry but Athiesm does not fix these problems, nor religion cause them.

So far no evidence that we are capable of producing/observe can prove otherwise on the points you mentioned.

And Atheism is never the answer for anything, it doesnt claim to fix things. But religions are capable of facilitatings the lack of empathy and greed and exploitation... all in the name of religions. It's hardly a matter of perspective

[Stewart]

'God' is simply a manifestation of man's inability to explain his own existence. It is a belief borne of our early ignorance and inherant need for reason, purpose and direction.

Well, of course, but what I'm asking is, now that we can explain our own existence, or at least can offer up explanations far more plausible than the big man in the sky one, why do people continue to believe in a big man in the sky?

Why hasn't religion died out?

We have small robotic Rovers sending back pictures from the surface of Mars, we have peered into the inner workings of atoms, we know about protons, neutrons and electrons. Quarks are thought to be one of the basic building blocks of matter. We know about Super Massive Black Holes, we can transplant hearts into living humans to replace a damaged or dieseased one.

And yet some of us worship a God. Isn't it all a bit silly?

[Hans Voralberg]

Oh and the old argument that people kill over religion.. news flash - World War 1 ans World War 2 were not religious wars...

Go back a bit in history, there's plenty. And believe me, sometimes religions may not be the cause of a war, it's a very strong discrimination factor between the sides of a war.

[rox0r]

Most conflicts can be sourced back, through the bigger picture, to a conflict of 'belief system' in one way or another. Not all, mind you, but most.

For instance World War 2? The Nazi's were somewhat hellbent on the eradication of a religion and belief system, in fact all other religions and belief systems that did not fall into line with their own.

[Stewart]

If there is no God, does that mean the Pope is pretending?

He obviously can not speak to God, because there is no God for him to speak to, and yet he claims to.

So the Pope, using logic, reason and common sense, is a liar, liar, pants on fire!

[Hans Voralberg]

If there is no God, does that mean the Pope is pretending?

He obviously can not speak to God, because there is no God for him to speak to, and yet he claims to.

So the Pope, using logic, reason and common sense, is a liar, liar, pants on fire!

I'd rephrase that as it's like he is on drug, not quite lying

[pollaxe]

I had a friend much like this. An intelligent chap and a creationist. Dinosaurs were put there to test our faith (and to cite the late, great Bill Hicks again "Yeah and I believe God put people like you on the Earth to test *my* faith!")

I can't speak for all Christians or religious types but it seems the more science strides forward, the more they dig in their heels. I'm an agnostic, I suspect 'something' more than the physical exists but I certainly wouldn't put money on it. I'll trust a scientist rather than a priest to heal me for example.

Why hasn't religion died out? Maybe because the more we discover, the more cherished beliefs are threatened? Therefore, people cling on to what they believe because they don't like the idea that we could be an accident/there is nothing 'spiritual' at all in the universe. I honestly don't know but it's an interesting question... I also suspect religion and the quest for scientific enquiry are two facets of inherent human behaviour, even if they can (sometimes) be diametrically opposed. Though you do get plenty of religious scientists (I watched an interesting lecture against creationism by a practising Roman Catholic scientist recently which was excellent.)

Mind you, extreme religious beliefs and extreme science are equally mysterious to me. Transubstantiation and quantum physics are equally mind-boggling concepts (and I'm not trying to equate the two or put them on an equal footing, of course, before anyone slags me off!)

Personally, I like a little mystery and not knowing for sure.

[Kezzer]

You need to do an Alpha course.

Stewart, the fact of the matter is that you don't understand religion thus can't grasp it. That's like me saying someone is a complete arsehole when I don't even know them. For all I know they could be the nicest person on the planet, but I don't know because I don't understand that person.

*waits for flaming from people who know nothing about religion*

[Stewart]

IAthiesm is not the light at the end of the tunnel followers of it claim it to be.

I don't think you are a follower of Athiesm, so much as you see it as the only reasonable explination of the world around us. It offers proof, reason and logic, or at least attempts to.

Athiesm is - here is how things are, and here is the proof that this is how things are. (Or here is an explination that is not just stated, but explained)

Religion is - here is how things are, and here is a song about a little donkey! Lets all sing about the donkey! It carried Mary on a dusty road! Praise the Lord!

Spot the subtle difference?