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Then on what would you judge a religion? The followers or cultural practices are the only parts that exist in reality for people to judge.
Then on what would you judge a religion? The followers or cultural practices are the only parts that exist in reality for people to judge.
"in reality" yes, but isn't it VERY obvious to go the the sources first? For example, the books, laws and teachings of a religion.
Take the Klu Klux Klan, do they represent every white person in this world?
I'm not talking about race here at all, this is not what the thread is about. Racism is still on the front of everyones mind because it keeps being brought up. People are so damn careful trying not to be labelled a racist that it makes there actions even more racist because they are trying to tip toe around making sure not to offend anyone.
But that is for another topic.
You can't judge a religion by it's books or teaching because these have so much variation and have been interpreted in so many ways that it is not possible to draw up an accurate point of view in your head. You can't really judge a religion at all. You can only judge people, and there are over 6 billion different humans on this earth so good luck with that.
and Muslims would never be caught with explosives in this country now would theyEver see the news story of racists who kicked and stamped on the head of a Muslim student, in a train station, because he had a beard? Or the news story about the BNP members house who was raided, and explosives were found? It's very silly to use stories that you have heard of.
1. Because the UK is, and should always be a Western SocietyWhy does Islamic culture (or even religion if thats what you mean) have no place?? Have you seen how many Muslims are working and living in the UK, and all around the world? Not like Muslims are a minority.
2. Yes i have seen how many Muslims are living in the UK...thats the scary thing...its too many. Its almost at invasion proportions.
Although i realise that many muslims are not actually from a Middle Easten part of the world (many are naturally European for instance), i do believe that the ethical side of the Muslim culture has no place and cannot mix properly with that of a true western one. It is seen and obvious.
The fact, as you state, that the Muslim population, particularly in the UK is exploding, is a sad testament to the fact that the UK is rapidly before too diverse for its own good.
I cannot even imagine what this country will be like in 50 years time and adn i am actually quite glad i will not be around to see the Enoch Powell prophecy come to full fruition.
Last edited by Blitzen; 06-10-2008 at 10:27 AM.
I am 100% against it, but doesn't take much intelligence to realise why the bombers did it. Either for personal problems in thier messed up head, or to raise awareness for deaths and other problems caused by certain countries. Picture it yourself, if say for example, Sudan came over here with a big army and killed your whole family in you own home, I'm sure you would feel some sort of hatred for Sudan?and Muslims would never be caught with explosives in this country now would they
Islam says killing anyone innocent whichever colour or religion is wrong, and killing 1 person will get you the punishment of killing the whole of humanity.
"binge drinking, drunken behaviour, yob culture and 15- year-old single mothers pushing prams"
The Muslims fault? If you had sharia law what enoch powell said wouldn't bloody happen....
Last edited by 360bhp; 06-10-2008 at 11:00 AM.
You are right. It doesnt take much intelligence to realise the bombers (cowards) motives.
Along that vein, it takes even less intelligence to realise that regardless of their motives, they are Muslims. The ONLY problems we have with terrorism these days is from people of the Muslim faith (used in the loosest sense of the word).
Are am not saying all Muslims sympthise with terrorism. That would be ridiculous. I bet if truth be told they, ALOT more do sympathise with terrorism than they dare admit.
I dont say any of those are Islams fault.These things are however an ingrained problem within the UK society."binge drinking, drunken behaviour, yob culture and 15- year-old single mothers pushing prams"
The Muslims fault? If you had sharia law what enoch powell said wouldn't bloody happen....
Islam, and the problems we have with it in this country are not ingrained. It is thrust upon us.
Also, to say it wouldnt happen under Sharia Law is probably true. It doenst mean i want to live around a culture and law such as that though.
Please feel free to live in a 'Sharia State' if these things concern you so much.
Binge Drinking. Anti-Social...i agree. BUT, we are free to do this if we choose. The same as a Muslim is free to (in this country and many do).
I would say that screaming from the top of a mosque to go to prayers is anti-social aswell. Its a hell of a racket and if faithful people cant get the the mosque in time. Is that as bad as loud teenagers. Absolutely.
Lastly, are you SERIOUSLY telling me that some Muslim women dont get 'knocked up' at 15years old. Jesus, from some of the things i have seen around the world, not only do muslim women churn kids out at 15, some of them have practically had a family by that age and are GrandMothers in their late twenties. Marrying within the 'family unit' isn't exactly looked kindly upon but that seems to be acceptable aswell.
DONT preach how great Sharia law would be in this country when so many that preach want to live here.
I am not saying this country is perfect. A million miles from it in fact.
You paint such a dreary picture of how bad the UK society is though, so why, being a Muslim, would you want to be here?
Please.........just tell me, if our laws arent good enough, our youth culture is so bad, our alcohol habits are disgraceful...etc...etc....etc......WHY would a Muslim want to live here.
Its a question that no-one ever answers truthfully so i cant wait for the answer to this. (and please dont use the 'i was born here' argument. If you were, then put yourself in a migrants shoes rather than you own for this one)
Last edited by Blitzen; 06-10-2008 at 04:32 PM.
Firstly you haven't a clue what you are talking about. Go and read Enoch Powell's (river's of blood) speech and show us where he rallies against "binge drinking, drunken behaviour, yob culture and 15- year-old single mothers pushing prams"."binge drinking, drunken behaviour, yob culture and 15- year-old single mothers pushing prams"
The Muslims fault? If you had sharia law what enoch powell said wouldn't bloody happen....
If Sharia law is such a deterent then why do we find these punishments being handed out in countries where that system of law is practised to the extreme? Your argument does not follow, it's a non-sequitur and therefore your argument falls. Do you want to see this in the UK?
I'm sorry if those pictures are distasteful and I may have broken Hexus forum rules, but I think people need to actually see the end result of the type of sharia law 360Bhp is proposing.
I'd rather have binge drinking, drunken behaviour and 15 year old single mothers than the above and 8 year olds married against their will to 30 year old men and being subjected to sexual and domestic abuse. http://yementimes.com/article.shtml?i=1145&p=front&a=2. It has taken us in the west hundreds of years to attain life without this barbarity and we certainly won't allow it to take hold in the UK.
No I don't like yob culture any more than the next person but sharia is not the answer.
"Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be." Frank Zappa. ----------- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." Huang Po.----------- "A drowsy line of wasted time bathes my open mind", - Ride.
Blitzen (06-10-2008)
Great post Iranu,
I think that definitely makes a case for not having foreign laws in the UK.
Muslim states rarely have laws that dont advocate physical punishment.
To this end, how many from the Islam faith would be here if we practiced these mindless, barbaric, ancient and frankly animalistic acts.
They are a step away from cavemen.
The people that support these punishments are VERY low in the food chain and the supporters of it are no better!
I would suggest some of you choose a better brand of newspaper. Seriously.
English Law allows for 2 people or parties to settle disputes amicably through a third party if they wish to do so voluntarily. It saves court time, lawyer expenses and is just well.. quicker in a lot of cases. If a citizen within England wishes to take up there rights afforded to them by the law and asks for this they are not breaking any laws of the country.
Lastly, this will not be for criminal cases. So it will not affect anyone. (includes those calling themselves muslim). So those examples of violence etc don't count.
shadowmaster (06-10-2008)
Precisely the point made by plenty on this subject - BUT unfortunately those niaive few who tend to voice their opinions the most on this forum (and enter into arguments rather than just make one/two posts and their point) are those few (thankfully) in this country who are gullible to soak in exactly what the media tells them.
Terrorism has ALWAYS been a monopoly of the politicians - right now they and the media have got (thankfully) not the majority (the majority being silent) people of the UK cooked up in an anti-islamic frenzy. Mention the word Islam (or anything percieved to accompany it) and people start tripping. Even though its been pointed out that this will not affect THEY'RE 'western' lives in anyway whatsoever, that such laws are already applicable i.e. Jewish tribunals/courts etc. AND do not over rule existing laws of the land..... its all just getting a tad boring
And as for showing pictures of what the minority of muslims do (i.e. sensational types) don't make me start on exactly how 'democratic' the 'west' (as some of you guys term it) actually are. What difference does it make that your are burned to a crisp in an electric chair/gassed than shot in the head? death is death at the end of the day. - The 'West' has the death penalty also for the severest of crimes. We seem to forget the continuos streams of paedophiles caught in our shores performing horrible acts of sexual acts and abuse yet are quick to point the finger at other shores......
It goes tit for tat - stop making it out as if the 'west' are pure angels whilst the 'easterners' are all devils - we all know how much genocide has been commited recently in the name of recent claims of 'democracy' and 'doing the right thing' - its just a shame its all covered up by media lies.
And for those that want a reason as to why muslims choose to live in the UK/'West' - Not ALL 'westerners' think your biased way (i.e. if you want shariah law - go to a country that has it) and thankfully accept other religions and cultures, thats why.... If you want to cry about there being too many muslims in the UK try having a look at the facts - they are still a minority and will continue to be so. Still nothing makes the UK YOUR country more than it makes it a UK muslims (who is born and bred here) in your eyes other than you are 'white' - looking back at your own descendants you''ll find the majority of the UK are of a non-UK background - i.e. from europe etc. (google the term anglo-saxon)
peace.
360bhp (06-10-2008)
Dont forget Quantanamo Bay, and Belmarsh.
So what's your solution, kick them out? Ethnic cleansing? Limit Muslim couples to one kid each? The only somewhat fair solution would be to limit immigration but that would only be fare if you applied that to all immigrant communities wanting to come in.
So those pictures IRANU posted are just media sensation are they?
You know and i know that they arent so have a word.
What are you talking about?Even though its been pointed out that this will not affect THEY'RE 'western' lives in anyway whatsoever, that such laws are already applicable i.e. Jewish tribunals/courts etc. AND do not over rule existing laws of the land..... its all just getting a tad boring.
OF COURSE it shouldnt effect our 'Western Lives'. Why should an alien legal system have any impact on us?
And as i said before, the Jewish Laws have no baring on this discussion as they arent any pockets of Jews actively committing terrorists acts in the UK (not that i have heard anyway).
What the West does IN THE WEST is our business and not someone elses. If this isnt acceptable, then dont live in a country where you cannot accept the laws of the land. If you want Sharia Laws, move to a Sharia State. Can you not grasp that?
I agree...there are paedophiles caught in the UK and its a sickening thing to even consider.
Are you saying that Muslims dont also have their fair share of paedophiles? Of course they do.
In fact, incestuous relationships are rife within Muslim communities. (Sorry if that offends anyone but its fact)
Utter rubbish as you are turning it into a racist argument. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH COLOUR!And for those that want a reason as to why muslims choose to live in the UK/'West' - Not ALL 'westerners' think your biased way (i.e. if you want shariah law - go to a country that has it) and thankfully accept other religions and cultures, thats why.... If you want to cry about there being too many muslims in the UK try having a look at the facts - they are still a minority and will continue to be so. Still nothing makes the UK YOUR country more than it makes it a UK muslims (who is born and bred here) in your eyes other than you are 'white' - looking back at your own descendants you''ll find the majority of the UK are of a non-UK background - i.e. from europe etc. (google the term anglo-saxon
peace.
For your information, i do accept and whole hearted think that other religions and cultures are what makes the world tick. If we were all the same, the world would be such a boring place.
What i dont agree with, is that we should all live in the same space.
Look at it this way:Still nothing makes the UK YOUR country more than it makes it a UK muslims (who is born and bred here) in your eyes other than you are 'white'
You are born a cat, to 2 cat parents and your ancestors were all cats.
BUT
You were bought up in a rabbit hutch eating carrots.
Does it make you a rabbit.
or
A cat <---
Whatever way you dress it up, and i bet if you spoke to 'Britsih Muslims', most would say they are not British
But it doesn't have an impact on you as it only affects muslims and only those muslims who choose to have disputes settled that way. Hell if it was that way I'd be objecting to it too!
I'd say I'm British. I don't believe in Islam or religion though (although forced by my Mum to go mosqueWhatever way you dress it up, and i bet if you spoke to 'Britsih Muslims'
Quite alot of them say they hate this country and yet they still stay here. I hear it all the time in the mosque or on the way home. They don't like english girls wearing clothing which reveals skin, drinking or kissing in public or even hugging. Hey it's none of their business. I can understand why you're scared (or fear?) that Britain might turn into what they want because maybe you think once they have this one law they'll get away with having loads of other laws instated, but all I can see is that it has no effect on us.
If I haven't made it clear I don't want it turning into a country governed by muslim law (any law that affects us only, when I mean us I mean all of us in this country) either just so you know. But being against this is like saying we shouldn't allow muslim marriages either because we'd have the option of being wed that way too. But like that you're not obligated to have your case settled by that law (Sharia) either.
So if you still object to it, it must mean you still don't understand how it affects you or you're scared of the UK being dominated by muslim law or muslims.
Blitzen (07-10-2008)
Thanks Moogle ...... and good post.
I am really pleased that someone who has involvement in the Muslim community has actually put up a personal response such as yours
I must say though, that your last sentence is particularly good. You are right, that i think the 'anti-islam' felling in the UK is largely down to British people feeling that when things change in favour of another culture are indeed scared of having theirs scaled down or even lost.
I also think that alot of religions that populate countries where its not the 'norm' (sorry but wasnt sure how to put it), dont try to get as many things changed to favour them. This is definitely where the bad taste comes from for many people.
If more people thought like you do, then the problem would get alot smaller and these discussions would never happen.
Unless you attend a Wahhabi mosque where if the spy camera documentaries are to be believed (and I see no way of them being faked) it is normal teaching that the kaffir (the rest of us) is less than a dog and deserves to be killed.
"Free speech includes not only the inoffensive but the irritating, the contentious, the eccentric, the heretical, the unwelcome and the provocative provided it does not tend to provoke violence. Freedom only to speak inoffensively is not worth having."
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