Never mind fox hunting.....

[Thatch]

i despise fox hunting it is only allowed cos the scum who do it are toffs, badger baiting is illegal and for good reason yet fox hunting isn't tho i suppouse working class people have to be kept away from that kind of thing.

also lynni if u knew anything about fox hunting ud know it isnt very effective at culling foxes, and as for ur argument that shooting is cruel, well im baffled , i suppouse ud rather face death by fox hounds than firing squad.



rave the point with fox hunting is that makes a sport out of the killingof the fox whilst i know very few cat owners who chase their cat round the streets cheering them on to kill birds.

anyway lots of farmers iknow hate the toofy nosed gits trambling allover their land.

Revol,
I'm not entirely sure where to begin as your argument is so full of holes it's almost beyond my comprehension.
However in the interests of democratic discussion I shall attempt to address some of your claims.

1. "i despise fox hunting it is only allowed cos the scum who do it are toffs"

Fox Hunting is no longer allowed, it is scheduled to be banned in February 2005. I'm not sure who or what your "toffs" are but using this kind of language doesn't really add to the weight of your argument. If you are referring to the wealth of those involved, I would argue that the hunt I am familar with are made up of a large cross section of the community. In terms of Age, Sex and Income.

2. "working class people have to be kept away from that kind of thing."

You suppose ? well hang on a minute, I know for a fact that many people you would consider working class, are employed by Hunts. In fact these are the people that will be hit hardest when the ban comes in next year.

3. "if u knew anything about fox hunting ud know it isnt very effective at culling foxes"

Well how much do YOU know about Foxhunting ? have you ever been foxhunting or witnessed a Hunt ? Or did you just decide that it would be your rant for the day ? Fox hunting by hounds is a very natural and effective form of control. It mimicks nature in that the weak old and sick are usually those caught. A fit helathy fox is very unlikely to be caught by hounds. Do you propose shooting , Snaring or Poisoning ? or are you so ignorant as to think no control of Foxes is required at all ?
Firing squads would be very effective and humane, but do you honestly think a Fox will stand upright and allow you to shoot it cleanly between the eyes ?
You show an ignorance of shooting here that undermines your argument considerably. Perhaps you should research your shooting idea properly, perhaps then you would realise that it's very in-effective and usually results in a healthy fox being maimed and thus more likely to prey on easy targets such as live stock.


4. "i know very few cat owners who chase their cat round the streets cheering them on to kill birds"
The followers of the hunt do not cheer on the hounds at all. I would also guess that your cat owning friends do little or nothing to stop their cats from decimating the local population of small mammals and rodents. This is justification of the action in the same way as activly encouraging the cats.

5. "anyway lots of farmers iknow hate the toofy nosed gits trambling allover their land"

Do you mean Toffy ? your spelling is nearly as bad as your ability to address a point of view effectively. How many Farmers do you actually know ? It might interest you to know that the laws governing tresspass in this country dictate that permission is required before entering private property. Hunt's rely on the goodwill of farmers and landowners for this permission. I'm sure your many Framing friends could quite easily prevent this "trampling" by simply withdrawing their consent for hunting to take place on their land.

I eagerly anticipate your reply

Thatch

[Rave]

I think you'll be anticipating his reply for a while, I haven't seen him post here in a good long time. This is an old thread that was recently resurrected.

Do you mean Toffy ? your spelling is nearly as bad as your ability to address a point of view effectively. How many Farmers do you actually know ? It might interest you to know that the laws governing tresspass in this country dictate that permission is required before entering private property. Hunt's rely on the goodwill of farmers and landowners for this permission. I'm sure your many Framing friends could quite easily prevent this "trampling" by simply withdrawing their consent for hunting to take place on their land.

Criticising the typos of others then making one yourself (Framing) isn't really the way forward mate, although I've done this before myself. Anyway, hunts have been known to ride over land which they've not been given permission to be on, but that in itself is no justification for banning hunting, if it's a real problem then just strengthen the laws on trespassing.

I largely agree with RVF here. I'm certainly not a hunter, in fact I find the idea pretty distasteful, but being a libertarian I'm compelled to argue that something should be legal unless it demonstrably causes harm or great inconvenience to other people- or it's unnecessarily cruel, which I'm far from convinced that fox hunting is. Stag hunting, badger baiting, cock fighting etc. obviously ARE unnecessarily cruel and I have no problem with those being illegal. I also agree that the legislation is more to do with getting one over on country people than with animal welfare.

I'm not always that sympathetic to country people, they (in the general sense) have been responsible for some nasty episodes (like farmers getting involved in the fuel protests for example- meddling, troublemaking ******s). However, one of the most depressing sections of Private Eye each month is the section where they list the myriad ways in which DEFRA is cocking up the countryside with Kafka-esque regulations, and insane interpretations of EU directives.

[Thatch]

Framing ... DOH ! good spot , and for what it's worth I agree with a lot of what you have written. RVF also made some very good point's . Looks like I have joined this thread a little late for any impact, cheers

[Rave]

Glad to have you anyway mate, and I'm sure plenty of people will still read your points. New people join all the time who won't have seen this thread the first time round.

Rich :¬)

[bleep]

if u dont like my opinion then that's your problem, not mine... it aint gonna stop me from thinkin wat i believe in

[Rave]

weeeelll screw u rave... if u dont like my opinion then that's your problem, not mine... it aint gonna stop me from thinkin wat i believe in

A closed mind is the preserve of the bigoted and willfully ignorant. If you don't want people criticisng your opinion then keep it to yourself. Or is that too complicated a concept for you to understand?

Stop the insults

Rich :¬)

[Thatch]

I've recently joined this forum and am looking for any opinions other users might have on the recent ban on hunting with dogs. I have found a document online which perfectly illustrates my feelings on this issue. So in the interests of provoking a healthy debate please read it too ...

I go Hunting because...

...I choose to. Of course I appreciate that not everybody would make my choice -that's the nature of the tolerant society that we should be free to live in.

...hunting is just as humane as other forms of control. It's the method that a lot of farmers prefer.
Uniquely, hunting allows for a balanced control. It maintains numbers at a level farmers can tolerate - not too high and not too low.

...I am supporting a way of life that provides rural areas with an irreplaceable social and cultural life.
Independent research has shown that opposition to hunting is far less than claimed.

...Our rural economy needs all the support it can get. Hunting is a vital part of the economy. Thousands of rural jobs depend on it.

...I enjoy it. I meet all kinds of people; I love watching the hounds, riding across open country, being close to nature and the elements. I am proud to be part of an ancient tradition that means so much to so many people.

Who would benefit from a ban on hunting?

Not the Quarry species. Foxes will be controlled with or without hunting, so the Question on control is not whether but how. Any wild mammal confined to merely pest status faces an uncertain future.

Not the conservation and landscape of our unique countryside. Country sports provide an incentive for biodiversity.

Not the social and cultural way of life that bonds rural communities together.

Not rural economies and employment.
Facts confirmed by the Burns Inquiry.

Farmers, landholders and keepers often rely on hunting for pest control.

A ban on hunting would put up to 13,600 jobs at risk.

Hunting is critically important to the social and cultural lives of many rural people.

Farmers and land managers are overwhelmingly in favour of hunting.
In areas where hunting takes place nearly 60% of the community are
opposed to a ban.
Drag or bloodhound hunting cannot replace hunting or its jobs.

Hunting has played a significant role in forming the British landscape, and continues to encourage biodiversity within it.

A ban on deer hunting in the West Country would lead to a decline in numbers.

The legislation to ban hunting would be very difficult for the already overstretched rural police to enforce.
More Facts

There are over 300 packs of quarry hounds in England, Scotland and Wales.

Each year these hunts provide over 20,000 hunting days.

Total annual attendance at all meets is 1.28 million persons. 42% are on horses and 58% are on foot.
There are 205 known supporters clubs with a total membership of 39,159 persons.
The hunts organise nearly 4000 social functions from coffee mornings to point to points with an overall attendance of over 1.3 million people.

Hunts run 189 of the 209 UK point to point meetings.

Total annual expenditure specific to foxhunting is £243.1 million (Produce Studies 1998)

200 hunts collect "fallen stock'. In 1999, 366,000 head of fallen stock were collected at a cost of £3.37 million.

Hunting isn't just about people in red coats -if you own a terrier, lurcher or greyhound, you are at risk from a Bill that bans hunting.

I have to say I fully endorse all these points, what do other forum readers think ...

[yamangman]

Wow, i've never really delved into this section of the forum before. It certainly is different!

Personally, I think the hunt is sport/game perpetuated by rich rather snobbish types and their village idiot underlings. Oh if we all came from the cities...

That aside, I think the fox/domestic cat argument is diametrically different and in all honesty it does not take a genius to figure out why. I see hundreds of various types of wildlife splattered and semi-conscious all over our rural roads every month, I don't think this should result in a ban on motorised transport. Surely in this day and age farmers can provide a greater deal of security for their hens (does that sound as stupid as I think it does?).

That aside, the main parties involved lobbying for whatever outcome are not concerned for the plight of any of these animals. They are concerned about money - farmers, appearance - the government, and what they see as their fun - the majority of hunt leaders.

[Dakaras]

Wow, i've never really delved into this section of the forum before. It certainly is different!
. Surely in this day and age farmers can provide a greater deal of security for their hens (does that sound as stupid as I think it does?).

Not if we (the consumer) want free range eggs or meat. Catch 22 for the farmers, we tell them we want more meat, eggs cheaper etc so they go the mass produced route. We then click that hey thats cruel, it leads to BSE and bad animal welfare. So we want, well fed, chemical free happy free roaming animals.....But we still want it cheap!!

For what its worth I disagree with the ban on hunting with dogs. We have a massive mink problem in this country and dogs are one of the most effective ways of controlling them.

For the record Ive never hunted but I have shot, trapped and gassed foxes, Legally when I was a gamekeeper after leaving college. We killed a lot more foxes then the local hunt ever did. And I have to say now that I would no longer trap or gas them even if the need to reduce the population was drastic. A fox caught in a snare is not a pretty sight .

Re controlling foxes with guns imho its the most effective way, a decent 2 man team with a lamp and rifle can kill 4 foxes in a night on land they know. However you cannot get away from the fact that sometime the best shot will not kill a fox instantly. Ive spent hours tracking an injured fox to finish it off and my guts were churning all that time so now unless they are within 25ft of me I no longer use a shotgun to shot foxes and would only use only high powered hunting rifles.

[yamangman]

Exactly they could do, but i'm not so dense as to not know why they won't.

Money and politics.

[Thatch]

Re controlling foxes with guns imho its the most effective way, a decent 2 man team with a lamp and rifle can kill 4 foxes in a night on land they know. However you cannot get away from the fact that sometime the best shot will not kill a fox instantly. Ive spent hours tracking an injured fox to finish it off and my guts were churning all that time so now unless they are within 25ft of me I no longer use a shotgun to shot foxes and would only use only high powered hunting rifles.

I totally agree with you, unfortunately as we both know, it's very unlikely that you are going to have enough well trained and skilled two man teams scouring the countryside for foxes.
The Exmoor Foxhounds alone account for 150 brace of Foxes per season.

I just can't see the Shepherds and Farmers employing professional people to shoot Foxes. They are more likely to have a go themselves, which means badly used Shotguns and many maimed Foxes on the increase as far as i can see. Or the even less attractive option of gassing and trapping. I hope the so-called animal loving groups like RSPCA and League against cruel sports can stomach that !
If they think a Ban on hunting is going to save Foxes pain and suffering they are very sadly mistaken.

I am more inclined to suggest that this ban has a lot more to do with class warfare by the Labour Party and their deranged supporters than anything else.

[RVF500]

It seems that the arguments for the ban are based largely on spin. Many times the same lines are trotted out. Mostly by people who have no concept of what a hunt entails. I've lived all my life in rural areas and to be frank I don't know what a hunt entails either.

But I do know what it's like to try shooting things, anything really. Use of firearms is a skill. One which needs to be kept up. To shoot a relatively small and mobile target is not something that any Tom, Dick or Harry can do. I've spent most of my adult life around firearms. Similarly I have seen traps used and if the argument is about cruelty then they same exponents of the argument shouldn't even mention traps. Animals can survive for many hours in agony caught in a trap.

I've heard many times that the majority want a ban. How do we know? No one has ever asked me officially. Has anyone asked any of you? Apart from gangs of thugs turning up to disrupt hunts the only mass demonstrations I have seen are from the pro lobby. The unions and Labour fight tooth and nail when a few hundred industrial jobs go. The loss of around 13,000 rural jobs seems more like an unfortunate side affect of policy here. 1 rule for one and one for another? I guess that the 20,000 hounds that will be destroyed will be done humanely so that is acceptable to the anti lobby. Chickens ripped apart in a coop by a fox is also acceptable I guess. Because that's what foxes do right?

This is nothing more than class war at any cost. The cost being born mainly by the working class people who will lose not only jobs but in many cases homes as the positions carry tithe homes (as a gamekeeper I think Dak can bear me out here) as part of a wage package. The monetary wage being lower as a house comes with the job. I wonder how many banners realise this, or even care for that matter. Not their job or home at risk after all.

[Dakaras]

I agree with both Thatch and RVF on this, I have also handled firearms since I was old enough to be taught which end to hold and lived in the countryside pretty much all my life, Ive never once been asked my views on fox hunting.

I was at a saddlers the other day having this discussion a few interesting observations from her for you.

1. She is far from rich or a toff
2. She is a proffessional person earning her living from a highly skilled craft, it dosent come to her on a plate, this then funds her hunting as well as the day to day stuff we all do, live, eat, etc.
3. If hunts close she has a concern that some farmers doing thing on the cheap will start to dump dead live stock as the hunt removing them for the hounds will have gone And it costs to have them dispossed of in any other way.
4. Her figure was approx 220,000 hounds that will be destroyed
5. The average cost of a days hunting is £65. She and I both know people that spend more than that on squash, golf etc.
6. Yes there is a large cost to keeping a horse, however thats why she drives a 13 year old banger and has no carpets in 1 room in her small terranced house.

So in summary I agree this is a class thing, but very misguided as in my opinion the classes that loose out are just like us!

[DaBeeeenster]

People, stop the insults. If you cant deal with other members tearing your opinions to shreds, dont come into this thread.

Next offender gets slapped with a Russian Shotputter.

[chriscom]

Well I live in the countryside and I know exactly what a hunt entails.

It starts the night before or early dawn, where terriermen will go block up as many fox and badger setts as possible to prevent foxes returning home. Often they will NOT remove the blocking of these setts after the hunt as in the past I have been asked to go help unblock badger setts.
I always find this bizarre as if they know where all the foxes live, then why does one have to chase it to death before killing it?
The hunt follows a meet card that sets out the areas they'll be hunting for the season, again calling into question the pest control service they are suppose to be carryinh out.
For the most part foxes are far from a pest, yet hunts are not organised around so call rogue foxes but rather follow these arranged meets.

At the hunt they will follow an arranged set of draws, of course this could alter depending on a fox. However, saying this Foxes have their set runs and tend to stick close to these even when chased. Thus where a fox will daily wander through gardens which for a most part is a pleasant sight, to see it run through followed by a pack of hounds who cause mayhem is something alot of us countryfolk are looking forward to being banned.
One of the happiest people to see it banned are our local animal sanctuary as the stress the hunt has caused them and their animals has been extreme.

Don't agree with the crocodile tears over the death of hounds either, it's interestng that as puppies they frequently go and stay with families, yet they are claimed to not be suitable for homing. Furthermore, if a puppy fails to make the grade it is shot and so are adult hounds who show a lack of interest in hunting, despite being starved the day before to encourage them to hunt. In fact adult hounds rarely live over the age of 7.

It's not a class issue either, nor a town VS country issue as there are many in the countryside who can't wait for it to be banned.

[RVF500]

My question to you then is this. When so many country folk marched to support their way of life. Where was the counter march from the country folk who want to ban tht way of life? Or was it such a done deal everyone sat at home giggling at the tv at the hopeless attempt of people in the face of overwhelming govt?

Just what are the figures on for and against? Not hypothetical or polls of merely a thousand people. Real figures. Only way to find that out would be through referendum. This is not an outdated and failing industry but a self supporting one. It is not an environmentally damaging industry. The basis of banning this lie in concepts niether side of which have been proven. So the ban comes about because that's what government wants.

Foxes are pests. I don't want them in my garden. I know when they've been. I have to clean up after they have ripped through bin bags and scattered the contents around. Something that is happening more and more in urban areas as teh foxes move into towns. They also are known to carry disease so watch out if you ever get bitten by one. They happen to look very pretty. I ask you. If foxes looked and sounded like hyenas, would the call for a ban be so vociferous?