Never mind fox hunting.....

[Rave]

Seeing DaBeeeenster's post in the Clare Short thread that he's had some nice letters from his MP reminded me of the time I wrote to my MP, Jim Dowd. After the commons vote on the bill to ban fox hunting, the BBC published a list of those MPs who had voted in favour of a ban, and sure enough he was one of them. Hunting with hounds is responsible for the deaths of something like 50,000-100,000 foxes a year (I forget the exact figure). Now that's all very sad and cruel (or not, depending on your viewpoint), but much greater carnage is caused by domesticated cats who are responsible for the deaths of literally millions of rodents and small birds every year. If anything the cruelty is worse because cats like to toy with their victims for a while before killing them; sometimes they wander off leaving them severely injured but alive. So, I wrote Mr Dowd the following letter:

Dear Mr Dowd,
I discovered from an article on the BBC website that you were one of the MPs who recently voted in favour of a total ban on hunting with dogs. While this effort to protect the welfare of animals is laudable, I do feel that far more cruelty to animals could be prevented if the government were to ban the keeping of domestic cats as well. The numbers of rodents and small birds killed every year by cats must be several orders of magnitude greater than the number of foxes killed by hunting dogs. In addition, their suffering must in general be far worse because of the propensity of cats to play with and torture their victims before killing them, or indeed to wonder away leaving an injured animal to die slowly and in horrendous pain. As someone who is clearly concerned with animal welfare, I am sure that you will be keen to support a campaign to ban the keeping of cats. I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours etc.

Yes, I realised afterwards that I'd misspelt 'wander'.

His reply (which I don't have to hand, but I can remember it pretty well) said:

Dear Mr Galloway,

Thank you for your letter of <date>. While you make some good points, it is not my intention to support a ban on the keeping of domestic cats.

Yours etc.

So, to paraphrase: "you make some good points, but it is beneath me to explain the flaws in your argument. I will also not be explaining why supporting a ban on hunting, but not on a practice which causes a great deal more suffering, is morally consistent."

I think that makes him an arrogant, hypocritical tosspot. What do you think?

Rich :¬)

[Allen]

You really want to ban the keeping of lovable, cute ickle liddle puddy tats?

I hate fox hunting... in fact I'm a hunt saboteur. I go out the night before and shoot the fox.

[lynni]

And if we didnt have fox hunting how would we kill the fox Big Al?

Poison is cruel, as is shooting cruel - do u hit the fox the right place everytime? or do u sometimes hit it in the leg, leaving it unable to hunt for food for days on end leaving it to slowly die a painful death? At least with fox hunting you know the fox will be killed, foxes need to be kept under control....

And yes i support it

[Allen]

Sorry, probably the wrong place for it, but that was a joke I heard today.

[Rave]

You really want to ban the keeping of lovable, cute ickle liddle puddy tats?

I don't give a monkeys about foxes or cats TBH. I do care a great deal about government stupidity and moral inconsistency.

So, this is not a vote about whether I'm a git because I do/ do not support fox hunting.

Rich :¬)

[Allen]

No, sorry. I agree, you're local MP seems to be a complete w****r. Don't vote for him next time!

[Skii]

He was telling a joke Lynni - a Tim Vine joke I think

Anyway, I don't oppose fox hunting, it gets far too harsh a press, and omits to mention how unsuccessful the majority of hunts are. To any farmer, ie the bloke who keeps us townies fed and happy, the fox is a parasite and a very real problem. It may be a handsome animal but its no better a companion to us than a rat, and I don't see anyone defending their rights

Then again my other half has the totally opposing view, so we have interesting arguments sometimes

We like cats though

[Rave]

I love rats. Lovely intelligent little animals . It's just a shame they have to p*ss in canals.

Rich :¬)

[lynni]

He was telling a joke Lynni - a Tim Vine joke I think

Anyway, I don't oppose fox hunting, it gets far too harsh a press, and omits to mention how unsuccessful the majority of hunts are. To any farmer, ie the bloke who keeps us townies fed and happy, the fox is a parasite and a very real problem. It may be a handsome animal but its no better a companion to us than a rat, and I don't see anyone defending their rights

Then again my other half has the totally opposing view, so we have interesting arguments sometimes

We like cats though

Oh ok then, i dont know who tim vine is

Sorry Big Al, that discussion makes my blood boil, wouldnt have had a go if i knew u was joking

[revol68]

i despise fox hunting it is only allowed cos the scum who do it are toffs, badger baiting is illegal and for good reason yet fox hunting isn't tho i suppouse working class people have to be kept away from that kind of thing.

also lynni if u knew anything about fox hunting ud know it isnt very effective at culling foxes, and as for ur argument that shooting is cruel, well im baffled , i suppouse ud rather face death by fox hounds than firing squad.



rave the point with fox hunting is that makes a sport out of the killingof the fox whilst i know very few cat owners who chase their cat round the streets cheering them on to kill birds.

anyway lots of farmers iknow hate the toofy nosed gits trambling allover their land.

[lynni]

i despise fox hunting it is only allowed cos the scum who do it are toffs, badger baiting is illegal and for good reason yet fox hunting isn't tho i suppouse working class people have to be kept away from that kind of thing.

also lynni if u knew anything about fox hunting ud know it isnt very effective at culling foxes, and as for ur argument that shooting is cruel, well im baffled , i suppouse ud rather face death by fox hounds than firing squad.



rave the point with fox hunting is that makes a sport out of the killingof the fox whilst i know very few cat owners who chase their cat round the streets cheering them on to kill birds.

anyway lots of farmers iknow hate the toofy nosed gits trambling allover their land.

I should really ignore this thread, cos im only going to cause uproar... but revol68 are u calling me a toff? Foxes need to be kept under control, if YOU knew anything about this so called 'sport' then you would realise that it is one of the only ways to do so... foxes are considered by farmers to be unwanted pests and the people that ride those horses and keep those dogs fed and watered in order to hunt, dont do for the pleasure they have a job to do

Foxhunting doesnt usually happen on land if a farmer doesnt wish to play a part in it.

Are u aware of the damage that foxes cause? they get into farmyards and cause hell usually at night so they arent seen, they steal chickens but not for food just for the pleasure... christ the chickens ive seen half mangled by a fox usually with most of their feathers left intact

If a fox is caught by one dog, theres likely to be five more behind it so yes when a fox is caught of course its effective! Do u really expect a pack of dogs to be able to catch every single fox in the region the hunt is working on? Because foxes do hide u know! Would u be able to pull every woman on a night out on the piss?

I would rather face a pack of dogs and know that my death would be likely be quick and relatively painless then face a gunman, knowing that if i make a run for it im going to suffer days of pain and hunger before i die

And just for the record before u start calling me some other offensive name, which i find personally insulting i dont agree with badger baiting

[revol68]

if u dont agree with badger baiting why do u agree with fox hunting??

and if it aint a sport then whty is it ful of rituals, and ive actually had to serve the bloodthirsty scum their champagne whilst they sit on their horses okay and it seemed like a sporting event to me albeit a cruel and backward one.

also im not calling u a toof unless u actually are one of those rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish in red jackets getting ur kicks from terrorising an animal.

ur argument that getting ripped apart by dogs is less painless is stupid as well is ur argument that it is a pest control job rather a sport.

infact even the countryside alliance does not attempt to justify it on these grouds rather they argue on the basis of minority rights ie the right for a minority of largely rich land owners to engage in savagery which would not be tolerated if carried out by working class oaf's eg badger baiting.

funny how all reports indicate that fox hunting is the least effective and cruelest means of culling fox populations oh well i suppouse i just imagined that.

and im not bloody stupid i dont think foxes are cuddly lil creatures who live offf grass, im fully aware of the damage they can do.

please explain why u think badger baiting is immoral whilst fox hunting isn't.

[Rave]

I'm about to start on revol68 here so I'm slightly trembling in my boots. What I want everybody to understand is that I'm trying to stand up against hypocrisy here, I don't really have much of a moral standpoint on bloodsports.

i despise fox hunting it is only allowed cos the scum who do it are toffs, badger baiting is illegal and for good reason yet fox hunting isn't tho i suppouse working class people have to be kept away from that kind of thing.

Actually plenty of working people will be affected by the ban on hunting with hounds. There are plenty who follow the fox hounds on foot, and there are probably a lot more who poach rabbits with lurchers, put terriers into sets etc. This isn't a class war we're talking about.

also lynni if u knew anything about fox hunting ud know it isnt very effective at culling foxes, and as for ur argument that shooting is cruel, well im baffled , i suppouse ud rather face death by fox hounds than firing squad.

Well foxes don't exactly stand still puffing their last cigarette and waiting for the bullet. They're pretty hard to shoot accurately. I don't believe there is a quick and clean way of killing foxes TBH, they're tricky little ****ards.

rave the point with fox hunting is that makes a sport out of the killingof the fox whilst i know very few cat owners who chase their cat round the streets cheering them on to kill birds.

Yeah, but equally killing foxes has some purpose whereas killing birds really doesn't. Swings and roundabouts IMO. The excuse for banning hunting was that it would prevent cruelty to foxes; well, I've seen numerous rodents die in pain after being caught by cats (I've had to put a couple out of their misery myself); I've never seen a single dead fox.

anyway lots of farmers iknow hate the toofy nosed gits trambling allover their land.

Yeah, and they're entitled to tell them to feck orff. If you want to prevent people hunting on your land you can very easily. If it makes any difference, my Grandad was a farmer and is still a landowner so I do have some perspective on this.

Rich :¬)

[lynni]

if u dont agree with badger baiting why do u agree with fox hunting??

and if it aint a sport then whty is it ful of rituals, and ive actually had to serve the bloodthirsty scum their champagne whilst they sit on their horses okay and it seemed like a sporting event to me albeit a cruel and backward one.

also im not calling u a toof unless u actually are one of those rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish in red jackets getting ur kicks from terrorising an animal.

ur argument that getting ripped apart by dogs is less painless is stupid as well is ur argument that it is a pest control job rather a sport.

infact even the countryside alliance does not attempt to justify it on these grouds rather they argue on the basis of minority rights ie the right for a minority of largely rich land owners to engage in savagery which would not be tolerated if carried out by working class oaf's eg badger baiting.

funny how all reports indicate that fox hunting is the least effective and cruelest means of culling fox populations oh well i suppouse i just imagined that.

and im not bloody stupid i dont think foxes are cuddly lil creatures who live offf grass, im fully aware of the damage they can do.

please explain why u think badger baiting is immoral whilst fox hunting isn't.

Badger baiting is cruel theres no need for it they dont cause the damage that foxes do, badgers apparently used to spread TB which is why they were killed in the first instance... but now with research or whatever it has been found that this isnt actually the case, badgers are killed for fun. they cant run like a fox, they run down into their set and cant get anywhere and then are dug out by shovels and dogs to find them and ripped apart. If a badger is left alone they dont bother anyone or anything, they are killed and tortured for the sheer pleasure of it


And yes you are calling me a toff, cos apparently im one of them rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish that sporting a red jacket... Have you ever followed a hunt? I have on foot, and on horseback, several times. do u know what it entails? and why if your so AGAINST it what on earth are u doing serving us chamagne for? The 'rituals' are traditions, that doesnt make it a sport.... these people still have jobs to do.. I dont get my kicks out of the event, its something that needs to be done and being able to come from both sides of the reasons why, i agree entirely with it, ive been the farmers daughter thats lost half their chickens and ducks in one clean sweep of an evening, and ive been on the back of a horse, doing my bit to keep these pests under control

You dont think foxes are pest's? yet you realise the damage they can do??? erm make ya mind up! I didnt call u stupid either, so dont be implieing things that havent been said

If fox hunting is so cruel then u tell me another way of culling them? cos i couldnt think of anyway that is any less crueler tbh

Some people may see it as a sport, i dont think it is.... its a job for some of us

[floppybootstomp]

I hate fox hunting... in fact I'm a hunt saboteur. I go out the night before and shoot the fox.

roflmao

My stand: I hate Fox hunting, bunch of toffee noised oiks getting off on cruelty, there are more humane ways of culling a troublesome Fox population.

I like Cats. It's irresponsible owners that cause half the problem, creating too many strays.

And can you imagine what a vote loser proposing to ban Cats would be for any MP? They'd never get voted in. Political suicide. So I'm not surprised at that MP's answering letter. It was a polite way of saying 'Don't waste my time' far as I can see.

[Rave]

I like Cats. It's irresponsible owners that cause half the problem, creating too many strays.

Well I almost never see strays. All the cats I've seen killing animals are well fed pets.

And can you imagine what a vote loser proposing to ban Cats would be for any MP? They'd never get voted in. Political suicide. So I'm not surprised at that MP's answering letter. It was a polite way of saying 'Don't waste my time' far as I can see.

Yeah, that's not the point is it? Fact is, cats cause an order of magnitude more suffering than fox hunting, so if you're going to vote to ban fox hunting on the grounds that it's cruel, then you're a hypocritical ****hole if you don't also support a ban on cats. Either you dislike animal suffering or you don't. Make your choice.

If you're voting to ban fox hunting purely on the grounds that you don't like country people and you want to screw them over, then fair enough. You're still an ****hole but at least you're not a hypocrite.

Note that I use you and you're in the general sense here, that's not directed at you personally floppybootstomp.

Rich :¬)