Making fun of the dead.

[liddlefeesh]

Hi CaseyV9,

You've made a few points here that deserve consideration on their own. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears the first is largely a "do you know this person" the second "how much fortune and fame does that person carry" and the last, "freedom of expression".

With respect to whether or not you personally know someone I don't think has a bearing on anything. It doesn't follow that if you know or don't know them that the joke could be harmful. And despite this, freedom of expression is a wonderful liberty but where does it end? Of course, "offense" can be taken at any point, by anyone, at anything. Heck, I could find your comments offensive (I don't), but that wouldn't be a reason to censor your comments

More interesting is your point about how much fame and fortune was responsible for causing the Jackson phenomenon and whether that therefore affords the joke maker some sort of "right". I don't think it matters at all if you are well known or not, I don't think it has any bearing on conveying the right to cause undue offence whatsoever. With respect to the allegations of child abuse; it's obvious from Jackson's own words that was was quite a bit different to the norm and quite possibly even a paedophile. I guess we'll never know the real answers to this but the jury did find the guy innocent, and so he is. Saying he's a paedophile on an internet forum is liable; although I suspect nobody is going to take you to court over it.

Generally speaking; I don't suppose anyone really cares about the Jackson jokes. I've heard some funny ones, I haven't repeated any but to be honest, who cares? To a degree it has to be expected and I'm sure his family are all used to it by now.

Peace.

[CaseyV9]

Hi CaseyV9,

You've made a few points here that deserve consideration on their own. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears the first is largely a "do you know this person" the second "how much fortune and fame does that person carry" and the last, "freedom of expression".

With respect to whether or not you personally know someone I don't think has a bearing on anything. It doesn't follow that if you know or don't know them that the joke could be harmful. And despite this, freedom of expression is a wonderful liberty but where does it end? Of course, "offense" can be taken at any point, by anyone, at anything. Heck, I could find your comments offensive (I don't), but that wouldn't be a reason to censor your comments

More interesting is your point about how much fame and fortune was responsible for causing the Jackson phenomenon and whether that therefore affords the joke maker some sort of "right". I don't think it matters at all if you are well known or not, I don't think it has any bearing on conveying the right to cause undue offence whatsoever. With respect to the allegations of child abuse; it's obvious from Jackson's own words that was was quite a bit different to the norm and quite possibly even a paedophile. I guess we'll never know the real answers to this but the jury did find the guy innocent, and so he is. Saying he's a paedophile on an internet forum is liable; although I suspect nobody is going to take you to court over it.

Generally speaking; I don't suppose anyone really cares about the Jackson jokes. I've heard some funny ones, I haven't repeated any but to be honest, who cares? To a degree it has to be expected and I'm sure his family are all used to it by now.

Peace.

I make my comments as an Atheist. I believe when a person dies that is the end. So I think the only thing wrong with making fun out of the dead is maybe upsetting someone they are close too.
As the the dead person will not be aware of it.

I understand my comments may cause offense. But also on this forum you have people posting that pedobear stuff. I do not find that funny, but if that is what they enjoy fair enough.

But as the thread asked if it is appropriate to take the mickey out of dead people, I say maybe. I can understand more if it is a famous person. For some reason though I think less so for people like you or me. I guess that is because people not famous are people you would know or you would know their relatives or close friends. And them hearing you taking the mickey out of the dead person would be a sore point and cause harm. I guess that would be more upsetting to their friends when that person is dead rather than living.

I guess it is down to when and where you take the mickey out of the dead person. Maybe on this forum my comments on MJ are not appropriate. Where other forums it would be appropriate.

[sexy girl]

I don't make fun of the dead for one reason: ghosts.

[Varmint]

I think that laughing at the dead is okay. Making fun of a dead loved one, I believe will partly help you get over him/her as was mentioned before, and it's fun to partake in making fun of dead celebrities.

[Brucelles]

I think it's really about manners. One tries not to offend a dead person's friends and family. I could make some kind of dead Kennedy joke here, as no Kennedys will be reading it, but to be fair, Ted Kennedy was just not funny.

I also think that sometimes, our jokes about the dead say more about us than about the stiff. Those who made vile paedophile jokes about Michael probably differ from those of us who didn't. I tend to judge people by their actions, and if their actions are those of a vicious, perverted child, I tend to judge them as being less than those who appear normal.

Still, they are mostly faceless geeks, safe behind layers of network, so my opinion is probably equally as moot as their rudeness.

[Georgy291]

i got 1 openion on this.

it depends how they died and what they were famous for?

if they died doing something stupid (ie liam grill) then they should, i mean if they climb the train then lol.

MJ no, he was a singer

[vicar]

I say let the dead rest.

[CaseyV9]

I find it hard to frown on this. I am not a vindictive person. The worst I think I have done is to someone is through words.

I think people in general are always find light hearted humour out of serious issues. People are messed up.

We enjoy video games with extreme violence. Laughing at a WWII game as a friend gets a head shot on his mate. Or laughing at dark humour as someone gets butchered in a horror movie. Maybe even enjoying porn or a woman laping up her gossip mag with MJ's corpse on the cover.

And these are not bad people or people who cause others harm. Funny thing is, each of the above will see what the other is doing and then get angry at them.

On forums you read things that may offend you. But I think that you should ask yourself whether person who wrote that post is actually out to offend YOU or whether they are just adding their opinion.

Do want to see people's opions or do you simply want everyone agree with you and make you feel "Right."

[TooNice]

We enjoy video games with extreme violence. Laughing at a WWII game as a friend gets a head shot on his mate. Or laughing at dark humour as someone gets butchered in a horror movie. Maybe even enjoying porn or a woman laping up her gossip mag with MJ's corpse on the cover.

Nobody is laughing because it's WWII though (or at least I don't think so). Someone getting butchered in a horror flick is usually a fictional character in a fictional setting. And I am not sure what the last one is about.

On forums you read things that may offend you. But I think that you should ask yourself whether person who wrote that post is actually out to offend YOU or whether they are just adding their opinion.

Do want to see people's opions or do you simply want everyone agree with you and make you feel "Right."

I may not agree with Santa regarding cyclists. I may not agree with many posters when it comes to piracy (both for/against, I may lean against, but I also draw my line to certain things I feel need change). I've never been offended in those cases.

The problem with MJ jokes is that many of them tend to imply that he is a paedophile. In our society, those are generally viewed as the worst scum of the earth. It's possibly one of the least disrespectful association you can possibly make toward a person. Family members and fans (I find it irrelevant that most fans do not 'know' him - fact remains that he may have contributed to their memories) are bound to find that disrespectfully offensive especially given that he has not been convicted of the charge.

A joke by it's nature is not much of 'an opinion'. You can't really 'disagree' with a joke because well, 'it's a joke' with little room for discussion. I am sure many people have discussed online about whether or not they think that he is really guilty or not especially when he was alive, and I do not have a problem with that. But frankly speaking, I doubt that most people who make joke about the deceased are using it as a defence mechanism against their grief. It just seem like a very convenient moment when people are paying their respect for a troll to stir people's emotions.

And just because a person is not out there to offend me (let's say the person posting is not trolling to see if they can get away with it on the basis that it's just a 'joke' or 'an opinion' but they genuinely believe that it's acceptable), it still doesn't mean that I wouldn't be offended, or at the very least find the person lacking manners. You've said before that dead people don't care since they are.. dead. But are you saying that there are absolutely no lines to be crossed and anything and everything is fair play? So a guy could secretly piss on a grave, dig up the corpse, cut it to pieces then have sex with the remains, and bury back so that no one knows and it's ultimately 'fine' because the dead don't know/feel a thing, and nobody related to the deceased will ever find out?

Or is it just 'words' that you find is fair play? While I recognise that there is difference between what I've described above and a joke, I would like to know if 'as an atheist' there are no limit to what you find (un)acceptable. If you find the above acceptable, there is probably no where else I can take this discussion (congrats, you are more twisted than I am). If you do not find that acceptable, consider that most people have lines drawn in different places from one another and it doesn't hurt to be a little considerate sometime.