burka ban in UK 1 step closer

[SeriousSam]

I belive its time for a...

[chuckskull]

NSFW The lamp is a lie

[kopite]

I wish I had a lamp like that

[MadduckUK]

Photoshop has given her Rickets

[Georgy291]

imo, ban them. since if i turn up to their country im expected to follow their laws etc. Where as when they come here they expect to do what ever they want. Also surely that kinda defies the point of security everywhere and CCTV?

also when driving, and you get caught on camera for w/e police have to provide evidence it was you behind the wheel, but surely thats a loop hole?

[ahmed87]

minimum dress codes exist, maximum dress codes sound unrealistic

that being said, i believe in universities, and customer facing roles , the burka should be banned.i am totally against it personally , but i cant enforce my views on sumone who wears it

[TooNice]

@Georgy291: As already stated, the issue of security applies to everything else that covers the whole face/body http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20100723/...n-870a197.html (I am surprised he was allowed in TBH - Dark Lord or not).

Also as already mentioned, for many the UK is already their country in all legal sense and will remain that way as long as the BNP is kept out of power. Arrest law breakers, but right now, a burka in public is not against the law so it is not a case of 'doing whatever they want'.

IF a ban is imposed, then yes, I would expect them to abide to it (as smokers in the case of the smoking ban). Until then, it is very much within the rule. And bans need to be sensible, you can't ban cigarettes but allow cigars and pipes without being called on your fairness/common sense.

[Rave]

It was obvious anyway, but I've had two PMs pointing out that my posts in this thread have caused real offense to Saracen.

I will not be editing my original post, even though I now realise that the paragraph which started with "Nice...." has upset him greatly- I believe that the internet mirrors life, and to try and retract what has obviously already been said is a waste of time, and cowardly. It is up to the mods to delete it if they see fit.

I want to state for the record that I am not just upset, but mortified that I have upset someone to the extent that they would want no more to do with Hexus. That flat out ain't how I roll.

[peterb]

I'd like to thank rave for his apology above. There has been much internal debate about the issue and I have read and re-read this thread several times to understand how and why this regrettable situation ocurred.

It seems to me that there was a confusion beween the Burka (which is a total body covering) and a headscarf of which 6 other types are referred to in this article (quoted earlier).

However, that aside, posting in forums requires a certain sensitivity with words because other forms of non verbal communication that accompany conversations are not available so it is easy to cause inadvertent offence.

The word "Nice" in the context used implied sracasm, which IMO was uncalled for (and is rarely called for in other situations where it is used to belittle someone else's point of view) The cancer reference, while used as a valid example to make a point could have been framed a little more sensitively in a general context.

On a wider note...

Tolerance has been a strong theme in this thread - and some members of the mod team have noticed a general lack of tolerance and mutual respect creeping into the forums of late. It detracts from HEXUS as a whole makes the forums a less welcoming place for new members - and all communities require new members so that they grow and thrive.

So can I ask all members to think about wat they are posting. As as been said many times elsewhere - disagreement and debate are welcome and encouraged, but in a way that unlikely to cause offence to another person. And if offence is caused, please use the "report post" button and don't start a flame war which can make a situation worse.

Post reports are ALWAYS looked at by at least one member of the team as all are notified at the time - but remeber that (apart from full time paid HEXUS saff) we all have other occupations and there may be delay before reports are actioned.

And think I have said enough on that topic.

[j1979]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20101007...h-c0ca4a9.html

I love democracy !

[TheAnimus]

I always thought Voltaire was french..........

[Blitzen]

Couldn't resist!

[MadduckUK]

[razer121]

Couldn't resist!

Epic WIN

[iranu]

I find this protest? hilarious (and somewhat confusing) but well worth watching. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...n-protest.html

I travelled through Indonesia (the most populous Muslim country in the world) and Malaysia in 1997 spending 7 and 4 weeks in each respectively. I never once saw a burka clad woman.


I was taught a lesson that I've never forgotten;

Whilst wandering around Medan (looking for a laundrette) in the north of Sumatra, I was approached by two Indonesian school girls aged 14 and 17. Steady there They wanted to practice their English, but I didn't really want the hassle at the time. Anyway being a young, attractive, blond, westerner (I had hair then) I was persuaded to at least talk to Katika and Dewi. They were dressed in white blouses, red/maroon skirts that were above knee level, white socks etc (stop it!), no head covering.

I wasn't sure of the right thing to do because having read a bit of the Lonely Planet etc and absorbed the culture I was aware of the possibility of making a boo boo. For example my mate and I got on a large bus and there were 2 seats left - one next to a 30 something man and one next to an elderly lady who wore a head scarf. My friend and I both stood because we knew that to sit next to the elderly woman would most likely cause her discomfort/embarrassment and offence to the rest of the people on the bus. The 30 something bloke got up and motioned to us to sit where he had been sat and he went and sat with the elderly woman whilst pointing to his wedding band. The elderly lady nodded to us and the rest of the bus smiled in a friendly way acknowledging that they appreciated what we had done. If I had been born in Indonesia I would still have done what I did because that is the culture. If it was in the UK I'd have sat where I pleased.

Anyway I digress.

Over the next few days I got to know Dewi and Kartika; they would pop round to the losmen (low budget hotel) to my slight embarrassment but I learnt alot from them. We arranged to go to a "cafe" so they could practice their English. I bought the drinks and couldn't believe how the younger Kartika was so exited to have a glass of orange juice. Orange juice was unaffordable to most people in the town. Anyway we discussed loads of stuff including the Indonesian for belly button! But me being the prejudiced degree educated westerner asked,

"So if you are Muslims how come you don't wear the headscarf or jilbab? (I think that's the right terminology because the niqab and burka are also garments but they all differ physically and culturally iirc)

17 year old Dewi responded with, "So how many times a year do you go to church on a Sunday?"

BAM!!! Sheer brilliance. The penny dropped quite hard. I'd asked a question through honesty, but based on ignorance and prejudice and got put in my place (pwned was not invented then I don't think) by a schoolgirl from a third world country.

It really made me think.


Both of them started to educate me, especially as Kartika was Balinese (and they are not Muslims). It also made me laugh when I told them that I felt uncomfortable; people (especially the waiter/cafe owner) were looking over more than they should. Dewi went off and set the record straight with the proprietor!!

There is no requirement in the koran for women to wear a veil/face covering. This is purely a tribal custom from parts of the middle east that has been exported; firstly to some other Muslim countries/regions and then subsequently from those to the West. How on earth could Dewi and Kartika learn about me and my country (and therefore me learn about them and theirs) if their culture required them to wear a burka? Well quite easily; they just approach me and say hello we'd like to practice our English.

Now let's say that they are not allowed to talk to men, let alone, slim, bronzed, blue-eyed, blond haired, dashing! (I'm having fun with this) Englishmen. How do we learn about each other? They needn't be wearing face covering garments for this to happen, although I firmly believe that Burka wearing and discouragement of interaction with men, in general, go hand in hand. I think it's principally driven by men and in some cases an overtly and incorrect belief that the individual is more pious for such actions - again this is influenced by community/"feminism"? (another prejudice of mine?)

I feel a real conflict between my personal beliefs, which I think is borne out in the thread too. Freedom for the individual verses the the state and what is beneficial for society/the country as a whole and what is accepted within "our" culture.

For example I've seen mainstream news papers print pictures of women wearing nothing but body paint above the waist (bare legs - no pun intended) in protest at soldiers wearing "bearskins" (helmets). Page 3 etc, etc.

My own belief is that the full face covering goes against culturally accepted practice because it effectively implies that the person acting has something to hide and does not wish to be part of mainstream society, specifically with regard to interaction with men outside of that specific community. It, to my mind, psychologically implies distrust/isolation/alienation, whether imposed or self-imposed.

Funnily enough I saw a burka clad (I presume), young woman with "normally" dressed peers who had plenty of skin showing, in conversation, the other day, so I'm not sure what to make of it at all.

It's a bloody minefield!

If I was make a call I'd say that the burka should be banned for the same reason that the French feel the need. It's for the greater good of society atm imho. Emancipation of women from the islamic community should trump individual freedom at this moment in time - **** me I'm a feminist!!

In my experience it's mainly the men that object to social interaction between myself and burka clad women. I was in Tesco's the other day and excused myself past a woman to have a look at the reduced section (bloody cheapskate!) She had no problem, but her husband gave me "daggers" and pulled their very young daughter of about 3 or 4 closer to him (she had a headscarf).

Naturally I found every excuse to wind this **** up every 10 - 15 minutes down each isle!

We are liberal yet will support (potentially?) illiberal practises based on our own liberalism

Sorry for the war and peace post but that's the way it came out.

[chuckskull]

Nail on the head Iranu. Top post.