Muslim Girl Loses Case To Wear Special Dress At School.

[Rave]

I exceeded the smilie count with this post, and have had to excise a few from both my own posts and Vaul's. Consequently the post might read a bit more po-faced than I intended it to.

Not the best boasts really. Basically saying you're stubborn, annoy people, will never admit you are wrong and will argue until you are blue in the face. Hardly floods you with credibility, as now, people are going to get the impression that debate with you is pointless.

Crucially though mate, I never preclude the possibility that I might have to change my mind.

The rules, mate, the rules. Those things that keep the country running, that you, in my opinion, in a rather childish, studenty, naive way, (I hope I can say without offending)

LOL! I'm sure I can interpret that in a complimentary way somehow....

seem think are meaningless and we should scrap the entire Court system because its garbage, and bend over backwards for anyone who demands their own special treatment.

Well, you seem to be misinterpreting a lot of my arguments, whether deliberately or not I don't know. Where did I say scrap the entire court system? In fact what I said (in an admittedly roundabout and probably unnecessarily vehement way) was that the system of appointing judges and qualifying barristers was outdated and ridiculous. The legal system itself is fine, the people running it are not.

Ah, the standard Lefty tactic of calling everyone who disagrees with them a racist, and hoping that it frightens them into silence. I'm glad you rolled that one out. The Judge was obviously the secret head of the BNP. It’s as clear as day in this case...

I'm not actually a lefty, but never mind. Still, in the sober light of day I can't really back that statement up, and I consequently retract it.

A Human Rights Warrior you may be, but you are being a warrior for the sake of it; looking for a case to champion, without spending a bit more time working out if you should be championing it at all.

Wrong. I am in fact a drastic lazy git, nothing would please me more than to live in a country where everything was perfect and I didn't have to complain:-).

If you think that rules are not rules, then you are free to break the law, and on the basis that you disagree with it, and see what happens.

Pretty much, yes. If I disagree with a law there's generally a good reason for that. I certainly wouldn't break laws just because it suits me to (with the exception of speeding if I'm honest- but then I wouldn't complain if I was caught).

Just out of interest, do you only drink tea made with ethically produced tea-bags?

Tricky one that. For the last few months I've been using tea bags that I requisitioned from Tescos bin- so although they weren't produced ethically, I'm not actually supporting the companies that exploit the workers that made it. It's my variant of 'freeganism'.

Did you protest against the war in Iraq?

I went on the march.

Do you think that anyone who has any sort of concern about Asylum is obviously a racist?

No, but I suspect them of ignorance unless they prove otherwise.

Do you think that anyone with a St. George’s cross out for the football must be a BNP voter?

No.

Just trying to get a better view of the sort of person I'm arguing with here.

Sure. Economically speaking my views are not really left wing or right wing- I'm basically a centrist. I realise that capitalism is the best system for creating wealth for everyone but I also think that governmnt intervention is often necesary. Social policy wise I'm a fairly hardcore libertarian.

Up there.

You asked for reasons why people need to wear a uniform, I gave you several, you seem to have difficulty seeing them,

Well, I read back over and all I could see was your assertion that it presents the 'correct' image and identifies the pupils as going to a particular school. I am asking you to explain why either of those things is good or necessary, because it isn't at all obvious to me.

You are free to petition the Courts and attempt to change the law, banning Sikhs from being exempt from crash helmets if you like; not sure what that would do for their human right though, Mr warrior.

Well, that clearly isn't what I want though, is it? I introduced the Sikhs as a specific example of where examptions are given in law to appease religious sensibilities. I totally fail to see how allowing Muslims to wear Jilbabs is in any way different.

Anyway, as I said, the problem as the turban, the solution was the exemption from crash helmets. In the girls case, the problem was she was a Muslim, the solution was a perfectly acceptable uniform, as deemed so by the school, other pupils, High Court, etc. No problems there.

You can say it's 'perfectly acceptable' until you're blue in the face mate but it still doesn't make it perfectly acceptable to the girl in question.

If a Muslim moved here from Nigeria, and demanded that, as is correct under their interpretation of their religion, they must be allowed to operate Sharia law, and that the butchers they live above must stop selling pork as it is offensive to them, would you support their right to do so, or would you (evil, racist scum!) be forced to deny them this right?

No, because the obvious difference there is that that (theorectical) Muslim would be trying to impose their values on everybody else whereas this girl clearly want to impose her values only on herself. It's also a pretty tenuous and spurious argument, has any Muslim ever come here and demanded that we stop eating pork? Outside of nutters like Al-Mujiharoun, I doubt it.

So were they right?

To shoot deserters? I'd say so, in general. To shoot small, shell-shocked orphans, with a little wikkle kitten under their arm, and a gammy leg? Well, we can all custom build a situation that makes a rule seem wrong, can't we?

Yes, and that's why having inflexible, 'one size fits all' rules is a bad thing.

As for locking up our homosexual friends, again, the standards of the day have to be taken into context. Homosexuality has been seen to be a disease, a mental disorder, and many other things.

Well, the standards of those days were clearly wrong, and if the standards of today say that all Muslims must fit in the pigeonhole allocated to them, then they are wrong too.

The standards of the day need to be taken into account. Looking back, was it right to lock up gay people? No. Still, you can’t anymore, so that proves that this archaic legal system that you so despise moves with the times, doesn't it?

I don't despise the system mate, only the people running it:-).

I'm not sure if you've noticed Mr Warrior, but apart from an appeal,

Yeah, an appeal sounds good to me.

So you abuse the right to non violent protest as well? As fine a note as any for me to end this post on, I think.

How have I abused my right to non-violent protest?

Vaul.

LOL! too mate. I may strongly disagree with you on almost everything, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be happy to sit down with you for a beer (and no doubt a lively discussion).

When I saw the report on channel 4, one of the statments that was given by the Headmaster was that when they ask the pupils of the school if they want the particular form of dress added to the Uniform list, several students said they would prefer it if it wasnt because they would be made (by parents I guess) to wear that form of dress if it was accepted.
Now to me that puts a whole different slant on things, the right to wear religous clothing is fair enough, but it could be one of the reasons this school is so popular is because of this apparent racist dress code allows a certain amount of the pupils to leave religion at home?

Now that is a good point, unlike those made by Vaul whose argument essentially seems to be that 'rules are rules, and these uppity minorities should know their place'. If by preventing one girl from wearing what she wants, they also prevent several others from being forced to wear clothes that they do not want to, then that is worthwhile. It all comes back to the point I (rather clumsily) made in my first post in this thread: along with the right to religious freedom of expression, must come a responsibility not to impose your religious beliefs upon others. The Muslim community (and indeed every other religious and cultural minority) must accept that in return for the freedom to practice their religion, there must be limits on what they can do in its name. A good start in my opinion would be to ban circumcision and try to get together a workable law to prevent people being forced into arranged marriages. I guess that's what annoys me most about this case- we're banning Muslims from doing stuff that doesn't really matter at all at the end of the day, and doing very little about issues that actually are important.

Rich :¬)

Edit: LOL @ how similar nichomach's post is to mine- he puts it a lot more eloquently though....

[Big RICHARD]

If I was still at school and believed that I had Dutch blood in my genes, does that mean I can go the High Court in order to wear my family's traditional dress of clogs instead of horrible black leather shoes?

[Shogun]

So in your books, Amnesty International are equivalent to a criminal organization, whose members go around burgling peoples' houses? Riiiiiiiiight...what colour's the sky on your planet? AI observers are well aware of the risks that they run, those risks being occasioned by the malpractice of the régimes upon whom they report; and they certainly do care about the risks to innocent people caused by such régimes - that's why they go, at great personal risk..

I was trying to make the point that you cant really complain when you get injured when you were not supposed to be there in the first place but still went after many warnings against it.

[G4Z]

well....

This thread is really kicking off init?

I have to say I have read some really good points there, but I still think that a uniform should be exactly that (uni as in one, one set of clothes for all) otherwise what the hell is the point? we gonna have multiforms?

When I was at school I hated wearing the thing, but I still had too. so whilst I actually disagree with the idea of a uniform, I really dont see why we should have different uniforms for different religions and then again for different sects within them, where would it end? Uniforms are not supposed to reflect religious beliefs, so in all honesty I dont think we should cater for any religions at all. Religion has no place in school, it just shouldnt be an issue.

[Shogun]

well....

This thread is really kicking off init?

I have to say I have read some really good points there, but I still think that a uniform should be exactly that (uni as in one, one set of clothes for all) otherwise what the hell is the point? we gonna have multiforms?

When I was at school I hated wearing the thing, but I still had too. so whilst I actually disagree with the idea of a uniform, I really dont see why we should have different uniforms for different religions and then again for different sects within them, where would it end? Uniforms are not supposed to reflect religious beliefs, so in all honesty I dont think we should cater for any religions at all. Religion has no place in school, it just shouldnt be an issue.

My thoughts exactly.

[nichomach]

well....

This thread is really kicking off init?

I have to say I have read some really good points there, but I still think that a uniform should be exactly that (uni as in one, one set of clothes for all) otherwise what the hell is the point? we gonna have multiforms?

We already do; and if the purpose of a uniform is to identify a child as belonging to a particular school, what does it matter if it's a shirt and tie, shalwar kameez or jilbab? As long as, say, it has the school badge or is in the school colours. There are schools around here that have girls wearing the shalwar kameez and you can tell instantly what school they're from. What's the problem with that?

When I was at school I hated wearing the thing, but I still had too. so whilst I actually disagree with the idea of a uniform, I really dont see why we should have different uniforms for different religions and then again for different sects within them, where would it end? Uniforms are not supposed to reflect religious beliefs, so in all honesty I dont think we should cater for any religions at all. Religion has no place in school, it just shouldnt be an issue.

So basically you favour the exclusion of all Muslims from state education within the UK, since disallowing the wearing of the required dress would automatically entail that.

[Shogun]

So basically you favour the exclusion of all Muslims from state education within the UK, since disallowing the wearing of the required dress would automatically entail that.

It would be their choice tbh.

[nichomach]

Well now that we've established that you DO favour discrimination on the basis of ethnicity and religious belief we can discard your opinions and move on. Cheers.

[Shogun]

Well now that we've established that you DO favour discrimination on the basis of ethnicity and religious belief we can discard your opinions and move on. Cheers.

No i just beleive that school should be free from anything to do with religion. It is the child's personal choice whether or not they want to be exposed to religion. This includes all religions, not just islam. It would then be their choice whether they abided by this or went to private schools which weren't state controlled.

[nichomach]

No i just beleive that school should be free from anything to do with religion. It is the child's personal choice whether or not they want to be exposed to religion. This includes all religions, not just islam. It would then be their choice whether they abided by this or went to private schools which weren't state controlled.

So they're free to attend school as long as they behave in a manner which is at the least agnostic and probably atheist, since because religion isn't something that you adhere to, nobody else should either. So, as I said, religious and ethnic discrimination.

[RVF500]

Just to play devils advocate here.

Why should we discard someone's opinions just because they discriminate. Why not ask someone why they feel that way instead of discarding out of hand? Not saying that anyone here is actually being discriminatory. Though, as ever, anything written here is open to the interpretation of the individual. Even the deliberate 'misunderstanding'

Personally, I have lived and worked in countries where I have been discriminated against because of my ethnicity. The UK is one of the most tolerant societies in the world. Because of that tolerance it is open to abuse.

[Shogun]

Firstly i am not an atheist. I am jewish. Hardly anyone knows that i am jewish at school and you wouldnt be able to tell i was if i was walking down the street. So stop making assumptions.
Secondly i wouldnt be racist or discrimate because of ethnic origins. I have had too much experience of that happening to me. I am half singaporean and half italian. My mum is buddhist and my dad is jewish. I have grown up with quite different religions around me so i think im quite tolerate.

[nichomach]

I have grown up with quite different religions around me so i think im quite tolerate.

Except of Muslims, apparently.

[Devilbod]

Nichomach I'm more than a little suppirsed at your comments, I lived in wales and went to and English school, not even 10 miles away there was a Welsh school. The difference between the two schools was the openly spoken word, at the welsh school it was asked that you speak Welsh as much as possible and lessons where done in Welsh.
Now to me this wasn't a case of discrimination against everyone or anyone this was a choice that you could make.
If somebody decided they only want to go to the Welsh school but speak English only and then decided to take the school to court over it it wouldn't be anything to do with being racist or oppresing anybody. It would be about that persons choice and in all honesty if that where to ever happen then I hope you agree that it would be bloody stupid.

In this case a girl who has a choice between one school that as a rule has a set uniform that doesnt have her dress on it, but rather than continue with her education which is the more important thing she has decided to take 18 months off school and persue this in court rather than just going to one of the other schools in the area that does allow the dress code, to me that not a race or ethnic issue it's more an issue of her attitude.

This school has either had these rules in place for a long time and is tradition and part of the schools history in which case who are you to put someones tradition below someone else's religion? Or there is another reason the school has this uniform code in which case if there is a good reason why should it change?
In either way you cant point the fingure and say because 'it's racist' or 'oppresive' if the reasons are justifed and for a good reason.

And in either way I dont see how this can be considered racist or oppressive because it's been reported that other schools in the area allow the dress so the choice is there, you cant expect every single school in this country to be tollerant to all the possible ethnic variations in this world thats just impossible to do, but unlike almost anywhere else in the world in the UK the choice of going to a school that talors for different religion is possible because as a whole this is one of the most tollerant countrys in the world.

And in can be argued that Uniform in schools is there to protect teenagers from several thing and one of thoese things is that not everyone has the open veiws that you have, there are still a fair percentage of racist in this country by making the uniform non-religious you allow someone to go through there education anywhere without the fear of being attacked both phyicaly or mentaly. Shogun has had experience of this and you can first hand experience this on these forums, I have no idea what religious or ethnic background you have or anyone else and so people tend to be judged on what they have to say and who they might be rather than what they are.

[Shogun]

Except of Muslims, apparently.

Not at all. One of the best people i can relate to at sixth form is a muslim. She also agrees that this girl was being very stupid taking this to court. She is a strong muslim too.

[nichomach]

My apologies, Shogun, I spoke in haste; but I profoundly disagree with the enforcement of some sort of agnostic monoculturalism.