Muslim Girl Loses Case To Wear Special Dress At School.

[Stewart]

How? How exactly would kids wearing burqas (sp?) or Jedi style robes to school disrupt the educational system? I'd like specifics here please.

Well, the reasons for not letting kids wear what they want to school, are many. Firstly, the uniform is there to look smart and present the correct image. Secondly, it makes everyone equal. Thridly, it prevent bullying, when people can't afford the latest fashions. Fourthly, it allows people to be identified as pupils of that school, for many reasons.

We have school uniforms in this country for the same reasons we wear a suit to a court apperance. Turn up to your school in Jedi style Robes, or a filthy, ill-fitting clowns suit, or dressed as an Ewok, and all manner of problem are introduced.

Seriously though, the reasons for school uniform are pretty obvious really mate.

Right, and granting people special rights because of their religious beliefs is actually an established principle in the law of this country. Sikhs are allowed to ride motorcycles without wearing a helmet, is that not special treatment on the grounds of religion?

Indeed it is, me old mate. However, its also a well thought out and sensible bit of 'special treatment'. There really is no alternative to this. Now, in the case of the school, there already is a uniform for Muslm girls, and so a further bit of special treatment is not needed. One is needed, the other is a demand based on what the individual would prefer. This is not the same thing.

Well, as I say lumping all Muslims together into one category is meaningless and insulting. People in Northern Ireland have been murdering each other for decades essentially because of the differences between their sects of the Christian faith. Similarly Islam has wide schisms between its different sects and there can be no solution that's acceptable to them all.

But there is a solution that is acceptable to the school in question, and the High Court in this country, and that is for all Muslims to wear the offical uniform as deemed acceptable by the school, and all other pupils who attend it.

Yeah, but then maybe nobody should ever complain about anything or stand up for any right ever? This is a free country. I object to being told what to do when it clearly doesn't affect anybody else, and consequently I have complete sympathy with this girl.

Rules are rules. Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Big Brother watcher. She did stand up for her rights, and she has now been told what they are, by the Court. We cannot allow individuals to bend and change the rules at a whim, simply because they are a member of an enthic or religious minority.

To be a high court judge you first have to be a barrister if I understand it correctly. To be a barrister you first have to join an Inn and dine 24 times at court. The legal system in this country is ridiculously backward and is frankly a disgrace. The sooner the whole rotten edifice is pulled apart the better. I have pretty much zero faith in this country's legal system. Still, it's better than having nothing at all, as I've already said.

Your personaly faith in the court system is of no importance. It is still the system that will be used to decide these matters, the system that has done so for many, many years, the system that will continue to do so for many years to come, and the best system we have for keeping the rule of law. Making catch-all stsements like 'the entire legal system is a disgrace' whilst offering no reasons why this should be the case, do not help your argument.

It's not acceptable to this girl. That's the point.

It is acceptable to the school, everyone else who attends the school, and the High Court. That is the point.

Um....no? The high court as I said is drastically backward and anachronistic.

Oh, you said that did you? Well, that must be the case then. I immediatly withdraw all my faith in the justice system of this country.

I like the way you say when you'll accept the rule of law though, like you have the option to opt out, because you don't like it.

Well, I'm very angry. Seriously, why have the smilies there if I'm not supposed to use them?

Use them as you see fit (I wouldn't want to infringe upon your human rights or anything)

[Stewart]

Or, given that there are no financial implications for the school, why not cater to both? Exactly what would it cost the school to say "OK, if you wish to wear the jilbab, you wear it in the school colours, and with a school badge (if appropriate)."?

And, again, what would it cost the the parents of the girl in question and the girl herself, to say 'Ok, I will respect the rules of the school'? The High Court rules in favour of the school, so the school was correct not to back down.

As to this idea that somehow her choosing one mode of traditional dress places pressure on other girls, well, for one, the girls in question are probably pretty used to seeing women wearing the jilbab, and are probably also used to the idea that they don't have to. So where's the problem?

The problem is that the school already has a uniform for Muslim women to wear, one which is acceptable to all other pupils, and should not have to change, because a single pupil demands special treatment. As the Court ruling points out.

Yes?

[nichomach]

Well, the reasons for not letting kids wear what they want to school, are many. Firstly, the uniform is their to look smart and present the correct image. Secondly, it makes everyone equal. Thridly, it prevent bullying, when people can't afford the lateest fashions. Fourthly, it allows people to be identified as pupils of that school, for many reasons.

And a jilbab in school colours or with a school badge would serve all those purposes equally well.

Now, in the case of the school, there already is a uniform for Muslm girls, and so a further bit of special treatment is not needed. One is needed, the other is a demand based on what the individual would prefer. This is not the same thing.

And this uniform is acceptable to many (if not most Muslim) girls. To some, like this particular girl, it is not. In that respect, her "need" for a more modest form of dress is as real as the "need" of a Sikh to wear a turban (incidentally, not all do). A Sikh doesn't have to ride a motorcycle, after all; it is simply that it would be wrong to exclude all Sikhs who wear the turban from participating in this activity effectively on the basis of their belief that the observance of their faith requires a particular form of dress. In this instance, I believe that it is wrong that this girl should be excluded from this school purely for wearing what she believes the observance of her faith requires.

Rules are rules. Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Big Brother watcher. She did stand up for her rights, and she has now been told what they are, by the Court. We cannot allow individuals to bend and change the rules at a whim, simply because they are a member of an enthic or religious minority.

So what? Courts occasionally get things wrong, you know. That's why there are appellate processes, including appeal to the ECHR, before which I think (and hope) that she would have a very good chance of success. No-one's threatening to tear down the edifices of society, Vaul, this is just a girl who wants to wear the dress that she feels (and she's hardly alone in this) is necessarily modest. And I've suggested workable compromises which would answer any of your objections.

It is acceptable to the school, everyone else who attends the school, and the High Court. That is the point.

No, that is simply the view with which you happen to agree.

[Stewart]

Just read this, made me laugh. A quote from the girls lawyer:

"Shabina's lawyer Yvonne Spencer said her client was devastated and would not be returning to Denbigh school. The family feels this decision doesn't help integrate Muslims within our society," she said."

Indeed, because as I'm sure we all realise, the way to integrate Muslims into our society is to keep changing the rules to suit individual Muslims, and not of course, for Muslims as a whole, to find an acceptable medium between their faith and the customs and culture of the country they choose to live in.

How would the passing of a law to give this one Muslim girl special treatment help integrate Muslims? Wouldn't it have the opposite effect, and lead to them standing out even more, and maybe lead to resentment amoungst other groups?

The way for Muslims to integrate would be for this girl and her parents to respect the rules of the school, as the other pupils do (80% of which, I should add, are Muslim) and anyone with a shread of common sense would agree.

[Stewart]

No, that is simply the view with which you happen to agree.

No, its fact. If I say something, its opinion. If you say something, its opinion. If the Courts rule on something, you can't choose to disagree (although obviously, you can challenge the ruling). The Courts don't pass opinions, they pass law; they pass fact.

So - the school is in the right on this isssue - fact. As ruled by the High Court. Until this ruling is overturned, or an appeal won, then that is the case.

[nichomach]

And, again, what would it cost the the parents of the girl in question and the girl herself, to say 'Ok, I will respect the rules of the school'? The High Court rules in favour of the school, so the school was correct not to back down.

It would cost her the observance of that level of modesty which she believes her faith requires. That's a pretty high price to demand of someone before you'll let them go to school.

The High Court's opinion is in line with the school; I believe both were wrong. The most that you can say of the High Court's decision is that it was probably legally correct. It really doen't say anything about the justice or injustice of the school's decision, it merely says that in the opinion of this court they acted within the law.

The problem is that the school already has a uniform for Muslim women to wear, one which is acceptable to all other pupils, and should not have to change, because a single pupil demands special treatment. As the Court ruling points out.

Yes?

No.

No-one has suggested that the uniform has to change for the other girls at that school so we can get that idea off the table for a start. As has been stated, the uniform of the school may be acceptable to some (indeed many) Muslims; it is not acceptable to all, and specifically, it is not acceptable to this girl (and there may well be others like her; my wife lectures Muslim women, many of whom choose to wear the jilbab as an expression of their faith). It would cost the school nothing to say that either the shalwar kameez or the jilbab is acceptable so long as they may be equally well identified as associated with the school.

[nichomach]

No, its fact. If I say something, its opinion. If you say something, its opinion. If the Courts rule on something, you can't choose to disagree (although obviously, you can challenge the ruling). The Courts don't pass opinions, they pass law; they pass fact.

So - the school is in the right on this isssue - fact. As ruled by the High Court. Until this ruling is overturned, or an appeal won, then that is the case.

Fact and law are not synonymous, Vaul. In this case, the school has an opinion as to what dress is appropriate. They have acted to enforce that, and all the court has said is, not whether they are right or wrong to do so, but merely that in the opinion of the court, they acted within the law.

The school acted lawfully in the opinion of the court; that is not the same as saying that their actions were right.

And opinions are precisely what are passed in judicial review proceedings; they are a statement of the court's judgement that in their opinion the law says x, or should be interpreted to mean y.

And I most certainly CAN choose to disagree with the finding of the court; I am familiar, for instance, with a murder case of a man who pushed his wife off an upstairs landing, dragged her upstairs by a rope around her neck, and then cut her up in a bath. Defence argued that if the prosecution could not demonstrate which act was fatal, the jury could not convict. The judge, having an Alzheimer's moment, agreed with this interpretation of the law and so instructed the jury, who promptly aqcuitted. The courts aren't perfect, and they get things wrong.

edit: My mistake; it was a manslaughter case (defective memory), Attorney General's Reference No.4 1980.

[Shogun]

No, that is simply the view with which you happen to agree.

As Vaul has said, the court passes law. Not what each individual judges opinions. If you don't abide by this why are you even in this country?

Vaul, this is just a girl who wants to wear the dress that she feels (and she's hardly alone in this) is necessarily modest.

I don't see any other girls in that school complaining?

And a jilbab in school colours or with a school badge would serve all those purposes equally well.

It would still look different, wouldn't it? This kinda defeats the point of it being a "uniform".

[nichomach]

As Vaul has said, the court passes law. Not what each individual judges opinions. If you don't abide by this why are you even in this country?

One, I'm here because I was born here. Two, courts pass a binding opinion as to what the law is, which opinion may be found to be incorrect or be later overruled. See above.

I don't see any other girls in that school complaining?

So? I see a very great many women whose choice it is to wear the jilbab. How do you know whether there are or are not other girls at that school who would prefer to wear the jilbab but are constrained from doing so.

It would still look different, wouldn't it? This kinda defeats the point of it being a "uniform".

And a shalwar kameez looks different from the Western dress of other pupils at that school, yet may still be easily identified with it.

[Swafe]

i dont see why they even bother campaining, if she wears her special whatever, she'll be different to everyone else

wouldnt that just make her the perfect bullyable student ? people pick on others at school as there different

[Stewart]

80% of the children at the school are Muslim, so being bullied might not be a problem. Thats not the issue, but I don't think that would be a problem.

[nichomach]

80% of the children at the school are Muslim, so being bullied might not be a problem. Thats not the issue, but I don't think that would be a problem.

See? We do agree on something!

[Swafe]

whoops, must have not noticed that, but yeah if it was anywhere else then they would probably get hassel, you got hassel ay my old school for doing anything wrong, if you used a biro not a fountain pen they'd beat you up and call you a tramp..

[Rave]

Well, the reasons for not letting kids wear what they want to school, are many. Firstly, the uniform is there to look smart and present the correct image.

Oh, the correct image? What exactly is the 'correct' image? We all look the same, consequently everything must be hunky-dory?

Secondly, it makes everyone equal.

It does not make everyone equal, it tries to impose equality on everyone. There's a big difference. Musilm clearly /= Christian, why try to pretend that all the kids at that school have a shared set of values when they clearly do not?

Thridly, it prevent bullying, when people can't afford the latest fashions.

Yeah, I guess being bullied for not having the latest in Jilbab fashion is a real concern to this girl.

Fourthly, it allows people to be identified as pupils of that school, for many reasons.

nichomach has said this already- put the school logo on the Jilbab, problem is solved. I don't exactly see why being indentified as a pupils of a particular school is so necessary, but never mind.

We have school uniforms in this country for the same reasons we wear a suit to a court apperance. Turn up to your school in Jedi style Robes, or a filthy, ill-fitting clowns suit, or dressed as an Ewok, and all manner of problem are introduced.

Seriously though, the reasons for school uniform are pretty obvious really mate.

Right, well seeing as I'm obviously a thicko, perhaps you could explain them in words of one syllable. Cheers.

Indeed it is, me old mate. However, its also a well thought out and sensible bit of 'special treatment'. There really is no alternative to this.

Um, yeah, there is actually a perfectly good alternative to this, which is that Sikhs take their turbans off and put on a helmet before riding a motorcycle. They're not sewn on to their heads you know.

Now, in the case of the school, there already is a uniform for Muslm girls, and so a further bit of special treatment is not needed. One is needed, the other is a demand based on what the individual would prefer. This is not the same thing.

Once again, I entirely fail to see how simply imposing one dress code on all Muslim girls is acceptable? It suits the school and the government fine, but it obviously doesn't suit all the Muslim girls.

Rules are rules.

Good, so I can be proud that my country used to lock up people for being homosexual, and used to shoot shellshocked teenage boys for deserting. At the end of the day, rules are rules eh?

Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Big Brother watcher. She did stand up for her rights, and she has now been told what they are, by the Court. We cannot allow individuals to bend and change the rules at a whim, simply because they are a member of an enthic or religious minority.

No, but we can protest against those rules when they clearly infringe an individual's fundamental human rights. At the end of the day, amongst all this moaning about Muslims abusing the system and taking the mick, has anyone given any thought to the fact that her parents (like every Muslim I know, which is several) almost certainly pay their taxes and national insurance and consequently have a right to have their daughter educated?

Your personaly faith in the court system is of no importance. It is still the system that will be used to decide these matters, the system that has done so for many, many years, the system that will continue to do so for many years to come, and the best system we have for keeping the rule of law. Making catch-all stsements like 'the entire legal system is a disgrace' whilst offering no reasons why this should be the case, do not help your argument.

To be a high court judge you first have to be a barrister if I understand it correctly. To be a barrister you first have to join an Inn and dine 24 times at court. The legal system in this country is ridiculously backward and is frankly a disgrace.

Um- that's my argument?

It is acceptable to the school, everyone else who attends the school, and the High Court. That is the point.

Well, then IMO they are all wrong. Nothing unusual in that to be fair.

I like the way you say when you'll accept the rule of law though, like you have the option to opt out, because you don't like it.

Well, I have a democratic right to protest, which I have used in the past, and no doubt will use again in the future.

Use them as you see fit (I wouldn't want to infringe upon your human rights or anything)

Cheers.

Rich :¬)

[Shogun]

It does not make everyone equal, it tries to impose equality on everyone.

So lets say you work in an office or a bank. And you decide to not to wear a shirt and tie which is the policy. You then get sacked after many warnings. Would you file for unfair dismissal? I somehow dont think you would.

which is that Sikhs take their turbans off and put on a helmet before riding a motorcycle.

This thread wasnt set up to discuss other cases. Only this one.

consequently have a right to have their daughter educated?

She does have a right to be educated. Yes. But school policy is school policy. Why doesnt she just go to a school which does allow it? Matter solved. Its their choice which school they go to.

[Rave]

So lets say you work in an office or a bank. And you decide to not to wear a shirt and tie which is the policy. You then get sacked after many warnings. Would you file for unfair dismissal? I somehow dont think you would.

Um- yeah I would, in a heartbeat? I'm a troublemaker, remember?

This thread wasnt set up to discuss other cases. Only this one.

When the other cases are directly pertinent to this one, I think it's fair to introduce them to prove my point?

She does have a right to be educated. Yes. But school policy is school policy. Why doesnt she just go to a school which does allow it? Matter solved. Its their choice which school they go to.

Sure. Find me another school in Luton which expressly allows Jilbabs will ya, since it's so easy?

Rich :¬)