Muslims, Islam and violence.

[badass]

But they're very different, think of a Christian extremist, you picture a friendly man wearing a jumper and strumming a guitar because the bible teaches Christians to love everyone. Picture a muslim extremist and you think of someone shouting "death to US" waving an AK47 in the air and a bomb attached to their chest because the Qu'ran teaches about Jihad and encourages hatred.

That may be what you picture but does not make it the truth. Take pro lifers for example. They like letter bombs.

[Slick]

christian extremists would be groups like the KKK, or westboro baptist church or somesuch

Not at all, extremist means being extremely into something. An extremist muslim is likely to be so into their religion they would give up their life for it and bomb other people, which their religion encourages them to.

The KKK were just a hate group which called themselves Christians, none of their actions are backed up by the bible and none of their hateful beliefs are a part of Christianity. The westboro baptist church are a group of Christians which Satan has a firm hold of, they are often misinterpreting the bible and their main problem is they go about everything the wrong way and overemphasise certain parts - yes homosexuality is a sin but just as much of a sin as premarital sex. To get someone to repent you don't attack them, you get to know them, talk to them about themselves and their beliefs in a loving way and tell them about yours. That's what being a missionary is about, and it's why if you meet a Christian who is completely into his religion they are extremely nice people.

[badass]

My post was about how the Arabic world is seen by many and why those conclusions are drawn.

So what if it is seen by many that way? Just because the "many" have prejudices against muslims so they only see the bad things or maybe they actually believe the media provide balanced reporting of events does not mean that.
How many of the worlds 1.5 Billion muslims were actually involved in demonstrations over the cartoons? It seems that a few people think that most were. The real figure looks like it was closer to 100,000 or less than one hundredth of a percent.

And on the point of distancing themselves - they already have. There have been peaceful demonstrations against the cartoons by Muslims deliberately distancing themselves from the earlier nutters.

[RedPutty]

An extremist muslim is likely to be so into their religion they would give up their life for it and bomb other people, which their religion encourages them to.

It does?

Christian extremists also bomb their enemies killing thousands and tens of thousands of them, however they have the luxury of being at a few thousand feet when they drop the bombs. Their religion encourages them to. (I know this bit is true because I have read it on the internet).

[[GSV]Trig]

But they're very different, think of a Christian extremist, you picture a friendly man wearing a jumper and strumming a guitar because the bible teaches Christians to love everyone. Picture a muslim extremist and you think of someone shouting "death to US" waving an AK47 in the air and a bomb attached to their chest because the Qu'ran teaches about Jihad and encourages hatred.

Depends what you read chap, go google Christian Extremists...

[Big RICHARD]

Do the IRA et al count as Christian Extremists?

[badass]

Not at all, extremist means being extremely into something. An extremist muslim is likely to be so into their religion they would give up their life for it and bomb other people, which their religion encourages them to.

The KKK were just a hate group which called themselves Christians, none of their actions are backed up by the bible and none of their hateful beliefs are a part of Christianity. The westboro baptist church are a group of Christians which Satan has a firm hold of, they are often misinterpreting the bible and their main problem is they go about everything the wrong way and overemphasise certain parts - yes homosexuality is a sin but just as much of a sin as premarital sex. To get someone to repent you don't attack them, you get to know them, talk to them about themselves and their beliefs in a loving way and tell them about yours. That's what being a missionary is about, and it's why if you meet a Christian who is completely into his religion they are extremely nice people.

You clearly know nothing about the Qu'ran or islam in general so dont talk rubbish.

[Big RICHARD]

You clearly know nothing about the Qu'ran or islam in general so dont talk rubbish.

Those guys who flew several planes into several buildings on 11/9/02 claimed to be followers of Islam, carrying out Allah's will!

I admit, I do not know the content of the Qu'ran, however it is plain that it must be open to some sort of interpretation, as some people can declare Jihads in the name of Islam as well as finding justification, if not 'orders from above' to carry out bombings (sometimes suicide) on innocent populations.

[RVF500]

The origins of this thread was about how the west perceives the Islamic faith. The basis of that perception comes from a significant number of incidents which has led to and continues to lead to loss of life. The predominent feature seems to be the willingness of some of the followers of Islam to kill at random pretty much anyone who happens to be in the way. We've had the world trade centre, the Bali bombings, the Madrid train bombings, The london bombings, a whole catalogue of bombings and shootings in Iraq, Isreal and Afghanistan. More bombings in Turkey. Then this raft of violent protest. The latest has seen KFC and McDonalds torched in Pakistan (I don't recall either of them publishing any cartoons). A similar protest in Afghanistan conveniently sidestepped to attack a US installation.

Ok, now correct me if I'm wrong but this doesn't seem like an isolated case of over enthusiasm. This is what is driving the perception of the West to a belief that Islam is a violent faith. My own perception is somewhat different. I've worked and continue to work in countries that are largely muslim, have an Islamic government or have a large muslim population. I've never experienced anything but a welcome from the population at large. Having said that there are certain countries I won't work in. Pakistan for example. It's simply not safe enough. Saudi, I disagree strongly with the oppressive nature of the rulers. But these are personal observations of cases by state not religion.

The difference is that most westerners don't have the same opportunities of work and long term exposure to these places. Therefore their perception is driven by what they see and hear from information other sources. What they see and hear is large groups of people violently protesting in the name of their faith in what appears to be an over the top reaction to any form of criticism or perceived slight to that faith. And they do see footage of people dancing in the streets when large scale terrorist atrocities occur. They don't see the majority getting involved to counter it. They don't see representatives of the faith in those countries appear and condemn the revellers or violent protesters. Which leads to an assumption that the silent majority is silent because it agrees.

[Slick]

You clearly know nothing about the Qu'ran or islam in general so dont talk rubbish.

Here's some quotes from the Qu'ran:

"Those who follow Muhammad are merciless for the unbelievers but kind to each other." (48:29)

"Enmity and hatred will reign between us until ye believe in Allah alone." (60:4)

"Make war on them until idolatory does not exist any longer and Allah's religion reigns universally." (8:39) (2:193)

"Fight the unbelievers in your surroundings, and let them find harshness in you." (9:123)

"Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, capture and besiege them and prepare for them every kind of ambush." (9:5)

I challenge you to find me any quotes from the Bible, particularly ones from the new testament which encourages Christians to do the same. I think you'll find "thou shalt not murder", "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", "Judge not, that ye be not judged" etc.

[iranu]

I remember in the few days after 11/9/2002 seeing video footage of people, in predominantly Arabic states (of which the population is majority Muslim), dancing in the streets and singing and celebrating the downfall of the 'enemy'. This most certainly was NOT distancing themselves from the 'extremists' and it comes as no surprise that the entire Arab world is tarred with the same brush, given the scale of these celebrations.

This is entirely true. It is very difficult to keep a neutral view when the television is showing people dancing and celebrating the deaths of 3000 people. Whilst there are Christiam fundamentalists in the world I do not see many of them dancing in the street celebrating all those people who were trampled to death in Mecca recently. I'm pretty sure the BBC or the Guardian would show this as headline news.

The argument is not really about the religion itself, more the culture that surrounds that religion. The west is Christian and democratic. The middle east is Muslim and theocratic/autocratic. Therefore the middle eastern people are told what to eat, what do drink, when to pray, how to live and what to think. Any freedom (of thought) is crushed by either the state or by clerics and that is how control is maintained. This is the reason why some Arabs celebrated the deaths of westerners and we do not celebrate the deaths of Muslims in the middle east.

Only when democracy is established in these countries will we eventually see a sea change because the silent majority will then have a voice. They will then have a choice, called a vote.

[RVF500]

One of the problems is that 'Allah' means God. So if you kill Christians you are not killing unbelievers but people who believe in God. Jesus is also in the Qu'ran. He's an important prophet (so I'm told by a less than militant muslim friend). If Chrisatians are killed for being unbelievers then the only thing they do not worship is Mohammed. But Mohammed was a man not God. But under the terms of Islam as I understand it putting a man before God would in contradiction of the faith.

The thing is. Islam is just a convenient shield to hide a violent political agenda behind. As well as a good way to incite large numbers of people and recruit others to that political cause. The nature of the countries from which this emanates makes it easier for the leaders of these movements to persue their goals.

[Slick]

One of the problems is that 'Allah' means God. So if you kill Christians you are not killing unbelievers but people who believe in God. Jesus is also in the Qu'ran. He's an important prophet (so I'm told by a less than militant muslim friend). If Chrisatians are killed for being unbelievers then the only thing they do not worship is Mohammed. But Mohammed was a man not God. But under the terms of Islam as I understand it putting a man before God would in contradiction of the faith.

Well even if some Muslims take this stance, what about atheists? They would still come under the title 'unbelievers' and therefore Muslims should:
"Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, capture and besiege them and prepare for them every kind of ambush." (9:5) - Qu'ran

Is this morally right? If not, doesn't this lead to the conclusion that Islam is an immoral religion?

[jesusLOL]

why hide your face unless you've either got something to hide or fancy breaking the law?

Bit like anti capitalism protestors then, thousands of them go demonstrations and some end up in riots with there faces covered, so all us whites hate mcdonalds and love to burn it down.

Well given the chance I'd burn it down but thats neither he or there

[RVF500]

The thing is that Christians, Jews, Atheists etc etc are all lumped together in a 'kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out' kind of attitude. But that's the political side of the coin. After all if you are going to mobilise a large group of people to do your bidding you don't want to complicate things by adding doubt as to who is and isn't a believer. I think it's a mistake to view this as a religious issue when I think that a belief system has been hijacked, the same way that many peaceful protests get hijacked, by an extremist minority. They are just rather good at what they do.

Bin Laden makes no secret that one of his goals is to ignite an East/West conflagration. He figures that with numbers on his side he's on to a winner. I see nothing to do with faith of any description in there. Just a will to achieve as much power as possible.

[badass]

Here's some quotes from the Qu'ran:

"Those who follow Muhammad are merciless for the unbelievers but kind to each other." (48:29)

"Enmity and hatred will reign between us until ye believe in Allah alone." (60:4)

"Make war on them until idolatory does not exist any longer and Allah's religion reigns universally." (8:39) (2:193)

"Fight the unbelievers in your surroundings, and let them find harshness in you." (9:123)

"Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, capture and besiege them and prepare for them every kind of ambush." (9:5)

I challenge you to find me any quotes from the Bible, particularly ones from the new testament which encourages Christians to do the same. I think you'll find "thou shalt not murder", "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", "Judge not, that ye be not judged" etc.

If there were as many anti Christian sites on the onternet I'm sure I would have the time to do so, however the Old testament has loads of that kind of stuff in it and Christians believe in that bit aswell