Smoking ban in all pubs and clubs

[Moby-Dick]

however if a pub where to offer an outdoor covered area - then you have the best of both worlds - you can kick the smokers out for a fag , and still enjoy a smoke free drink out. If pubs in Ireland can do it , I see no reason why they can't here. Its an excellent way or preserving the status quo.

[Moby-Dick]

And what about staff? Don't try to tell me they have a choice. If you need a job you take whatever is coming, and if you are a student then tending bar is one of the most available options. And you won't have smoking staff refusing work in a nonsmoking pub so that someone who doesnt smoke can work there. You'll have non smokers either work inhaling smoke or being unemployed. I think they should have their rights defended too.

Oddly enough working in a bar as a non smoker actually started me smoking as it was the only way to take a break - nb this was 10 years ago where things where a little different HR wise. I suppose if other workers have the right to a smoke free environment , then pub workers ought to be covered for the sake of continuity ,but as has been mentioned in other forums , what about the health and safety implication of louad music in bars - dont bar workers have a right to go home and not have their ears ringing ? where is a sensible place to draw the line ?

[dkmech]

That would be fine with me (i normally freeze outside) - only problem is that not many pubs have an outdoor area they can use.

[dkmech]

Oddly enough working in a bar as a non smoker actually started me smoking as it was the only way to take a break - nb this was 10 years ago where things where a little different HR wise. I suppose if other workers have the right to a smoke free environment , then pub workers ought to be covered for the sake of continuity ,but as has been mentioned in other forums , what about the health and safety implication of louad music in bars - dont bar workers have a right to go home and not have their ears ringing ? where is a sensible place to draw the line ?

I would love to have quieter music too lol. I mean there's loud and theres LOUD. And there far too much of the latter around.

[Moby-Dick]

That would be fine with me (i normally freeze outside) - only problem is that not many pubs have an outdoor area they can use.

Some of the "old bank" type bars might have a bit more of an issue , but most pubs outside town centres have a beer garden ?

[shelley bda]

Shelley,
What landlord is going to use his discretion to ban smoking in his pub. It may work now as a novelty thing when everywhere else is smoke free, but when more smoke free pubs will be available then the smoking ones would have advantage. And its not just up to landlord. Where will your smoking friends drag you? Smoke free pub? Doubt it.

A few landlords around my area have sucessfully banned smoking from their pubs, and who is it upto if not the Landlord??? not the Breweries? not the Government? not the Council?

All i'm saying is that people have the right ( it's a free country, well nearly ) to smoke if they wish, ok i don't smoke but i'm not going to condemn those that do, and i don't think it's fair to Ban them from smoking in Public, what next after youv'e banned smoking? your still breathing in fumes from cars and factories, i should imagine you breathe more of those fumes than fag smoke

I don't really care where people smoke as long as they keep their fags out of my house and car

[Rave]

Is it not a duty for a government to do their best to make their nation healthier? Yes it will cost money, but what doesn't?

That depends on whether you like the concept of the nanny state. Personally I believe in freedom of choice.

I suppose, given that we live in a democracy, and apparently 75% or more of the population support a total ban, that I can't get too upset about this- there are far more serious ways in which this government is trying to take away our freedoms. I also think it's fine to ban smoking in cafes and restaurants. However, I think banning smoking in pubs and clubs is mindless killjoyism. If (as is repeatedly claimed) lots of people avoid going to pubs because they hate smoke, why are there not more smoke free pubs? If non-smoking pubs took more money, then the big pub chains (like Weatherspoons, Yates etc.) would have made all their pubs smoke-free long ago. They're only answerable to shareholders, and it's their duty to make as much money as possible. The fact that they haven't speaks volumes IMO.

As for protectng pub workers- again a total non-argument. If you don't want to beathe secondhand smoke, don't work in a pub, it's as simple as that. I know that if you're on JSA you're not supposed to turn down job offers but there is no way that they would be able to force somebody to work in a pub.

Finally, when I gave up smoking, I found that I ended up drinking a lot more. My usual routine of drink, drag, drink, drag etc. turned into drink, drink, drink, drink.....just the job to solve the problem of drunken disorder eh?

[5lab]

fact is though, that pub work is all the work a LOT of people can get, and they might temporarily consider the risk worthwhile, but i know ltos of people who have suffered health problems due to 2nd hand smoke (not serious) and there are lots of documented cases of people dying. asbestos is banned because its dangerous, why shouldnt tobacco smoke be the same?

[Rave]

fact is though, that pub work is all the work a LOT of people can get,

Well, go on the dole then. I have been for the last three months and it's not so bad. Lots of jobs have some element of danger- I personally wouldn't work as a doorman for example. Fine, that's my choice, I'm pretty certain that I wouldn't get my JSA taken away as a result.

[Lee H]

fact is though, that pub work is all the work a LOT of people can get, and they might temporarily consider the risk worthwhile, but i know ltos of people who have suffered health problems due to 2nd hand smoke (not serious) and there are lots of documented cases of people dying. asbestos is banned because its dangerous, why shouldnt tobacco smoke be the same?

Tobacco if it was "discovered" today would probably be banned due to all the problems it creates, but because its been around for years and is a good source of taxation I'm sure that the powers that be would not ban it outright just yet

I'll admit it, I smoke - see there, that wasn't so hard but I don't smoke when having meals with friends and when I'm out at the pub I go outside into the heated "patio" area for a smoke or two (plus theres more girls there )

Personally, I cannot see how nightclubs are going to cater for this. Are they going to allow all the clubbers that smoke free-flowing access in and out of the club when they need their nicotine fix, which they need more after a few shandies or they just going to do a hardline stance and then you'll get some smart-arse wasting more taxpayers money by whinging to the European court of human rights.

[Curly]

Surely if the goverment was really serious about getting people to stop smoking they would make cigerettes illegal......but that isn't going to happen as they have a vested interest, ie the revenue from the taxes on cigerettes, whats really needed is proper funding and help for people who choose to quit, as an example housem8 was diagnosed with cancer and decided he wanted to quit smoking and rang the number advertised in the adverts on tv/in the media and was told sorry cant fit you in for 3 months. As Rave says if the non-smoking pubs are the goldmines they are proported to be all the big chains pubs would be non-smoking, I am a smoker, but don't frequent pubs that often but going anywhere I'm not allowed to smoke dose not bother me, I just don't smoke, the fact choice and freedoms are taken away does though.....my fear is whats next.

Curly

[TheAnimus]

However, I think banning smoking in pubs and clubs is mindless killjoyism. If (as is repeatedly claimed) lots of people avoid going to pubs because they hate smoke, why are there not more smoke free pubs? If non-smoking pubs took more money, then the big pub chains (like Weatherspoons, Yates etc.) would have made all their pubs smoke-free long ago. They're only answerable to shareholders, and it's their duty to make as much money as possible. The fact that they haven't speaks volumes IMO.

No because smokers are drug addicts, as such their judgement is impeded, they will refuse out right to join the group to a non-smoking pub, using emotive tactics to get what they want like a small child. And when you do, as a group go to a non smoking pub, the two or three smokers moan endlessly about it, so the overall fun is decreased.

Hopefully this way, they wont moan about it quite so endlessly.

Theres an intresting spin off the prisoner dilema, make one of them a drug addict, or like in the film das experment, someone lactose intolerant.

[G4Z]

I must say, I am a little sick of the "clothes smelling of smoke argument" I get the feeling that this is actualy what most non smokers are bothered about rather than the heath problems. If they were that worried about health I dont suppose they would be drinking anyway as lets face it, booze is a drug, it causes violence directly and liver problems yet that is still acceptable?

I dont understand the problem with "smelling of smoke" I know the first thing I do when I get home after a night out is... GET BLOODY UNDRESSED AND CRASH OUT IN BED!

what do you do the first thing next morning? oh yeah.. take a shower...

When you go out, you dance, you sweat you will get somthing spilt on you. Even resting on a bar is usualy enough to soak your sleeve. So smoke or no smoke your gonna stink anyway, its a crap argument.


The heath problems I can agree with, I think its very rude to smoke while people eat and I would never do it, further I dont have a problem smoking in a designated area and keeping the smoke to a minimum. Any smoke you inhale in a bar for a few hours a week is really not gonna cause you any more of a problem than living in a city with car fumes. I read up on it and apparently you have a 25% increased chance of lung disease if you live with a partner that smokes. That study was done over 30 years. I think the chances that your gonna develop lung cancer from standing in a bar for a few hours a week are not very high tbh and could be reduced further by simple compromise on this issue such as mandating ventilation and having designated areas.

Also, DK, if your friends are forcing you to a smoking pub then I say its your choice and if your too weak to stand up and insist you go somewhere smoke free then thats your choice and your problem, it shouldnt be legislated for.

Also on a side note I find the timing very interesting, the day after the ID cards scrapes through this was tabled in, odd that isnt it?

The really controversial issue is being covered up by this.

[menthel]

The smelling of smoke thing is a crap arguement, but the health one isn't. Roy Castle anyone? Entertainer for years working in smoky clubs, dies of the form of lung cancer you get from smoking. Never smoked in his life! A ban is good, for health reasons mainly, but also that is will enhance the experience of those of us that don't smoke.

[TooNice]

I must say I find that poll hard to belive, most of the people I know smoke and so there is a fair amount of people with a vested intrest in not standing in the English weather more than they have to on a night out.

... and most of the people *I* know don't smoke. I don't think we can use either of us as a reference point.

Dont like passive smoke, move to the other section of a bar.

Why should the smokers dictate where non smokers go by default?

i particularly see this as a problem in clubs because you tend to stay in there for hours, you cant leave without paying to get back in. So what I have to go without smoking for 4 hours to enjoy a night at the club that probably wont be so enjoyable thinking about how much I want a cig?

[...]
Personally, I cannot see how nightclubs are going to cater for this. Are they going to allow all the clubbers that smoke free-flowing access in and out of the club when they need their nicotine fix, which they need more after a few shandies or they just going to do a hardline stance and then you'll get some smart-arse wasting more taxpayers money by whinging to the European court of human rights.

I admit that I haven't seen this done in the UK, but I've been to clubs elsewhere (Asia) and some places would just put a stamp on your hand/arm. Then you are good to go in and out for the remainer of the night. Not that hard to implement really, and you can do the same thing with tickets too (not as ideal, since people could potentially try to sell the tickets if they are not coming back). There are work around.

If they were that worried about health I dont suppose they would be drinking anyway as lets face it, booze is a drug, it causes violence directly and liver problems yet that is still acceptable?

Subtle difference: when someone drink, he is only killing his/her own liver (amongst other organs). Well, unless s/he start to get violent and start attacking others anyway. Honestly, I don't care if people want to abuse their health... but without harming the folks around thanks. Oh yea, for that reason, I am also totally against drink driving.

And calling booze a drug is kinda stretching it. It is not nearly as addictive as cigarette. The drinking culture here may dictate some folks to drink a lot, and often... But unless I am an exception to the rule (pretty sure I am not), I can easily spend months without a drop of alcohol in my diet. This normally happens when I am busy. I don't think smokers typically smoke less when they have pressure/more load than usual right? (I think its the other way round actually).

I guess its pretty clear where I stand
[smoke all you want, but not in public area - until they invent some kind of private bubble to trap all the smoke around you and only you]
[drink all you want, but don't go picking fights/running over people]

PS: I think that the "clothes smelling of smoke argument", might weight more for some than others. I do find the smell really nasty. But if they ever make cigarette with the same smell/result for smokers as the current ones, WITHOUT the effect of damaging the health of everyone else breathing it... I am all for keeping things as they are now.

[Curly]

And calling booze a drug is kinda stretching it

tell that to an alchoholic......drink does and can become addictive, this is comming from someone who watched his dad die from drinking/alchohol abbuse.

sorry for going off topic, Curly