Intelligent Design / Evolution podcast

[Rhyth]

As a side point, many true believers of any god/gods do not need or yearn for evidence of such an entity, they call this faith.

[TheAnimus]

As a side point, many true believers of any god/gods do not need or yearn for evidence of such an entity, they call this faith.

Yes but using fuddam's eg, of been in love, then if i truely believed i was in love with someone, not needing any evidence or proof, i'd be in prison for rape/stalking.

You can say something excists because people belive, without analysis of why people belive it to be so. All to often its the same reason i take for the sky been blue, i don't really understand why it is, digital electronics is more my area, but i still belive it to be blue for a logical scientific reason. Not because of some 2,000 year old writings, i mean how do you know which religion is right, and tolerance only goes so far, if your tolerant of someone having views, which often are opposed to yours diametrically, how can you be tolerant?

[Rhyth]

Yes but using fuddam's eg, of been in love, then if i truely believed i was in love with someone, not needing any evidence or proof, i'd be in prison for rape/stalking.

I didnt read Fuddams eg, however, you can be in love with somthing/one regardless of wether the feeling is reciprocated. Rape/stalking is not in the equation unless for you, being in love with somone who's love is not being reciprocated would result in these actions from yourself.

Just to clarify, I in no way agree with fuddam's views although he is entilted to them.

If anothers views happen to be exactly opposite; contrary to my own, then tolerance must be be found from within friend, what else can you do if others refuse your views as you do theirs? I am not interested in diatribes therfor I am tolerant.

Each to their own if it harm no other

[TheAnimus]

Oh its interly fuddams statement i was finding funny, how do you deduce been in love with someone? My point is you don't just think "i'm in love" there are tell tail signs that you pick up on, to come to the conclusion i'm in love. A classic would be finding urself watching someone sleep (not in a scary stalker way, in a just-had-sex-but-not-sure-i-love-her way)

[iranu]

If one knows of the existence of God (closest eg: just as you know when you are in love), then ID is an explanation of things, not a justification for the existence of that same God.

If you know God personally, then ID is the most logical explanation for how the world is as it is (rather than, for example, a literal interpretation of 6 days as 6 x 24hrs)

If someone simply said "I can't explain the existence of X, therefore there must be a God", I would not say they know who He is, or are (Christian), or are doing anything else other than speculate.

Knowledge of God is a divine revelation, which can occur instantaneously, or over a lengthy period. But if, and once, one experiences it, the ID aspect of existence is self explanatory.

A classic example of religious delusion. No-one can know the existence of God, it's impossible to do that. You may believe that God exists by virtue of faith (definition faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence) but faith is not knowing. It's this kind of BS that makes the faithful so amusing. There is no possible way that someone who is so swamped by their vision of knowing can detach themselves for five minutes and think rationally or logically. Their faith will always intervene. Someone who has their religion so ingrained will never listen to or accept another counter argument because it strikes at their absolute core belief. Again you display the classic example of the holier than thou, superior Christian. You are implying that because I do not "know" God then I cannot possibly "know" the truth and that poor little me is worse off for it.

It amuses me when you say "If you know God personally, then ID is the most logical explanation for how the world is as it is" Why must you have a logical explanation for the world when you have an illogical point to start from? i.e. knowing God personally.

ID will never prove God. I do not try to PROVE his existence. The reason I post various illustrations of His design is not to prove anything, but to get people thinking. It's the bigger picture that I'm interested in.

Yes, your version of the bigger picture which you are trying to project onto us. You are trying to convert people to your own view yet you are unwilling to answer any questions put to you or see the value of logic, which your arguments sadly lack. There is noway that anyone using language such as "His design" can be interested in "the bigger picture", your picture is already drawn.

Religion is no more than man's attempt to explain the unexplainable; the fundamental questions. It's a psychological crutch. It gives meaning and comfort because the human mind cannot fathom it's own existence or the universe within which it exists. People just cannot stand the thought that existence might just be totally pointless, that this is all they have (i.e. no better life or afterlife.) and that their existence is just coincidence, a random occurance, something that just is.

[Auran]

Religion is no more than man's attempt to explain the unexplainable; the fundamental questions. It's a psychological crutch. It gives meaning and comfort because the human mind cannot fathom it's own existence or the universe within which it exists. People just cannot stand the thought that existence might just be totally pointless, that this is all they have (i.e. no better life or afterlife.) and that their existence is just coincidence, a random occurance, something that just is.

Well said that man

[fuddam]

In the same way you know the existence of god, Scientologists know that all of the bad feelings in the world are the result of a mass genocide by some alien who then puts the spirits of all of his victims in the volcanoes of earth that were released as man was first around and they then "posses" us all and give us bad feelings.
In the same way a cult member might know that an alien flying saucer is hiding behind some comet visible in the sky and they will all join them if they commit suicide they will join them.
How do you know that jesus was not merely a very convincing man that fortunately preached be good to others, rather than the son of a being there never has been any proof existed, and that everything that has been attributed to him has been shown to be caused by something else?

no, it's not the same.

it's not just intuition, or 'feelings'.

I assume you've been in a relationship. When you're in one, you know about it.

Is the fundamental difference between Christianity and all other religions - the personal nature of the relationship between Creator and created.

There is no way for you to truly understand it. Sorry. Believe me, have had plenty conversations over the years over exactly the same issue, with those on the other side talking halliucination, self deception, wild imaginings etc. Once they came over to the (not-dark) side , they understood what I had meant.

There is no way for you to appreciate it other than to not dispute it's existence. You can imagine I'm just deceiving myself, but that is conjecture at best.

I've mentioned this in other threads, and I'll mention it again: for example, God has a sense of humour. He plays tricks on me, much as any father would with his children. He laughs with me. He scolds me (truly ouch!) in a way that you know it's not simply your conscience, or your socialised morality.

[G4Z]

and back your only "evidence" for god, your personal relationship.

Answer me this yes or no, can you be sure this isn't all in you head?

If not, please elaborte on why you think this, have you been for a brain scan during one of your chats for example?

[TeePee]

But you can't say scientologists don't have a personal relationship with their alien spirit posessors?

And it would be hard to be more personal than the realtionship between a cult member and his alien anal prober...

What makes you different?

[fuddam]

A classic example of religious delusion. No-one can know the existence of God, it's impossible to do that.

how can you say that? you have no grounds to say such a statement. Conjecture.

If you go out tomorrow, and speak to any committed Christian, I would expect him / her to claim that they DO know of the existence of God. The important word is KNOW.

Faith is required to take all of what God says at His word; to trust Him to act as He says He will, in any given situation, or in what He claims to have done.

At the same time, there are periods of what a friend calls 'the dark night of the soul', when one goes through tough times. At such times, one isn't necessarily in touch with God in as tangible a way as usual, and then faith is required to get through. There are periods of self-doubt, because becoming a Christian (contrary to popular belief, and clearly yours too) does not make life EASIER. He gives one assurance, sure, but usually life throws more obstacles at you after you become a Christian. That is the reason why so many people drop out / backslide etc. It's far easier to live as the world is, than to follow Christianity. You will never know, until you experience it.

by the way, going to church, attending services regularly, spouting the words in church, does not make a person a Christian.

You may believe that God exists by virtue of faith (definition faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence) but faith is not knowing.

do you have material evidence that someone loves you? or proof? if you mention their behaviour towards you, I use the same argument.

There is no possible way that someone who is so swamped by their vision of knowing can detach themselves for five minutes and think rationally or logically. Their faith will always intervene.

conjecture

Again you display the classic example of the holier than thou, superior Christian. You are implying that because I do not "know" God then I cannot possibly "know" the truth and that poor little me is worse off for it.

I am saying YOU are superior to claim you know what it is to be in my shoes, or any other believer. You are the same as a person who has never been in love claiming to know all about it.

It is good not to be in your shoes.

Religion is no more than man's attempt to explain the unexplainable; the fundamental questions. It's a psychological crutch. It gives meaning and comfort because the human mind cannot fathom it's own existence or the universe within which it exists. People just cannot stand the thought that existence might just be totally pointless, that this is all they have (i.e. no better life or afterlife.) and that their existence is just coincidence, a random occurance, something that just is.

you are describing your own life, as you live it.

Yours is an overflowing teacup. You need to pour some out.

[fuddam]

and back your only "evidence" for god, your personal relationship.

Answer me this yes or no, can you be sure this isn't all in you head?

If not, please elaborte on why you think this, have you been for a brain scan during one of your chats for example?

for sure, if I was living on a desert island, that would merit serious attention.

It's the same reason why, in the Bible, it states that where 2 or more Christians are gathered together in His name, He will be with us.

On their own, a Christian could easily be prone to self deception, to mistake, to assuming to hear something from God but just be listening to their ego etc

Christians NEED to be in community if they are to follow Christ. Why? To keep checks and balances on their behaviour, their direction, their interpretation of scripture. No, not for simple conformity, or to follow the party line. In fact, any pastor worth their salt will tell the congregation NOT to trust what is being said to them, but to question it, to examine it for themselves, to discuss it.

There are other issues too, like support, fellowship etc, but a Christian alone is in a dangerous place.

We Christians, from your point of view, must have a very strong experience of Jungian collective unconscious, judging from our experiences.

When someone walks up to a stranger at our church, and says to them "that thing with your father, you can...." (whatever the message might be), that's pretty hard to fake.

of course, some will argue either
1) the messenger heard about the father incident through gossip, or
2) the messenger is trying to pull a fast one, much like a fortune teller, or
3) the messenger heard about the father incident, but forgot about it, and therefore thinks it is a message from God whereas it's just from his unconscious
4) you tell me etc

to conclude, most of the time, when I 'hear' a message from God (I can hear you laughing ), I question it. It could easily be from my imaginings. I have to test it against scripture, test it with other Christians, test it with people more experienced than myself.

believe it or not, Christians need to use their intellect in order to practice their Chistianity

oi! stop laughing!

[G4Z]

So what your saying is that you cant be sure its all in your head and you need other deluded people around to verify thats its not just in your head but in others as well.

Forgive me for thinking that is a rather blind way to approach it, would an insane person know they were insane if surrounded by insane pople?

[fuddam]

Forgive me for thinking that is a rather blind way to approach it, would an insane person know they were insane if surrounded by insane pople?

so we're all insane? interesting...........

you're welcome to your opinion - it doesn't make it accurate

[Rhyth]

Just thought I'd add my little views, they may or may not interest you
My belief is that every part of the universe is blessed in it's nature and that there is nothing wrong with the universe or with you, this means the purpose of my beliefs and spiritual practice differs from that of religions focused on issues of purification and salvation. I feel human beings are unflawed in their natures, are not spiritually doomed or damned, are born with all the tools and skills necessary to live ethically and spiritually, and are naturally orientated toward their own greatest growth and development. No part of my pagan belife, practise, rituel or sacrament is designed to "save" me from a flawed or corrupt nature or to avert supernatural punishment arising from such supposed flaws. By contrast most world religions teach the opposite of one or both paganism's central themes. They teach the elements of the universe are separate from each other and that there is something fundamentally wrong with all of us. They teach the separateness by asserting that the universe contains distinct bits of matter not connected at deeper levels, that each of us is irretrievably separate from others and the divine by nature, or that the universe is split between what is spiritual (and therefore good) and what is physical (and therefore bad). Paganism soundly rejects both these concepts, and unequivocally affirms the interconnectedness of all parts of the universe and the inherent rightness of the universe and human nature. Certainly I believe that humanity can improve itself, but pagans do not equate the human ability to make bad choices with a flawed nature. I feel some world religions where designed to control people and therefore the world. Unlike other religions it isn’t our way to stamp out all other religions, preach to, or convert people to our beliefs.. you may find your own way.

[G4Z]

Fuddam, you know fine well I wasn't saying your and your fellow Christians are insane, what i said was, if you were insane, how would you know it if surrounded by insane people. I asked you, do you think its possible that you are deluding yourself and reinforcing that by connecting with others that are deluding themselves.

Are you going to deny that possibility or accept it?

[fuddam]

Fuddam, you know fine well I wasn't saying your and your fellow Christians are insane, what i said was, if you were insane, how would you know it if surrounded by insane people. I asked you, do you think its possible that you are deluding yourself and reinforcing that by connecting with others that are deluding themselves.

Are you going to deny that possibility or accept it?

sure, is feasible

am quite happy to be deluded, though, if it means I am full of joy, that I feel love for strangers, and want to help them in any way I can, that I feel cleansed of my sins, and AFAIK, there isn't anything else on the planet that comes close.