Bah Humbug - Clarkson

[DaBeeeenster]

Hardly a personal attack, its just a case of don't start spouting stuff to someone who's had to sit through too much motor theory, given tours around a coal fired powerstation about damn electronics or coal fired powerstations. I guess its offensive to a point, but if taken heed can save face in the longer term.

You were making statements about my knowledge of electronics, not your own. Like I said, please dont resort to any further personal insults.

I've started a Peak Oil thread that you may want to continue this discussion in.

[Nat101]

Thought you all may find this link interesting, should help settle some of this debate.

Somebody has in fact looked at the total impact and cost of alternative fuels and current petrochems.

Its an Interesting read and for those touting biodiesel you should know that it is in fact 15% regular diesel so is not likely to be a solution all on its own.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...tml?page=1&c=y


Enjoy

Biodiesel doesn't have to be combined with fossil diesel, AFAIK. Where did you get that particular bit of info from?

[G4Z]

" Ethanol is an excellent, clean-burning fuel, potentially providing more horsepower than gasoline. In fact, ethanol has a higher octane rating (over 100) and burns cooler than gasoline. However, pure alcohol isn't volatile enough to get an engine started on cold days, hence E85."

Its in the link that you quoted, why dont you read it before posting?

[G4Z]

Also, I watched the top gear episode in question, did anybody else notice the amount of star wars music?

[Nat101]

" Ethanol is an excellent, clean-burning fuel, potentially providing more horsepower than gasoline. In fact, ethanol has a higher octane rating (over 100) and burns cooler than gasoline. However, pure alcohol isn't volatile enough to get an engine started on cold days, hence E85."

Its in the link that you quoted, why dont you read it before posting?

Because thats Ethanol, not Biodiesel - just like whiskey is not chip fat! Have you actually read the entire article, yourself?! (Page 5)

Now AFAIK, pure Biodiesel (i.e. B100) is not fully compatible with all current engines, in which case, as you pointed out, a mixture is used. Adding diesel also offsets the viscosity related issues that may be encountered in cold climates, but other non-fossil additives could be used to solve the problem.

[Flibb]

" Ethanol is an excellent, clean-burning fuel, potentially providing more horsepower than gasoline. In fact, ethanol has a higher octane rating (over 100) and burns cooler than gasoline. However, pure alcohol isn't volatile enough to get an engine started on cold days, hence E85."

Its in the link that you quoted, why dont you read it before posting?

Ethanol isnt biodiesel, it is a biofuel that can be used in petrol engines. Biodiesel is a type of fuel produced using an industrial process, that can be used in most non converted diesel engines as the only fuel.

Some diesels can run on straight vegetable oil without any diesel, others need starting on diesel than changing to SVO. The only reason many need to be started in diesel is due to the viscosity of the SVO, once the engine is up to temp most can run on straight SVO. Many modern diesel engines can be run on SVO / diesel mix, but the tax rate on SVO is so high its not worth doing legally, SVO can be as little as £8.50 for 20L, but you have to pay duty on it. Other option is Waste veg oil, but again theres duty to pay.

[dangel]

I'm not debating the moderating here. If you want to PM me, please do.

It's perfectly reasonable for someone to debunk you if they feel they have a great knowledge than you on a particular subject - that's what a 'forum' is for.
Heavy handed?
[edited in light of stoo's post]

Maybe if Clarkson refrained from making puerile points for the benefit of his own ego and actually addressed the question of electric cars at hand, we'd not have reason for this thread. Instead, he resorts to his usual trick of getting a laugh and barking over the subject.

As someone else pointed out - just don't watch it if it winds you up this much. Personally I find Clarkson quite amusing - sometimes he's right on the money and sometimes he talks rubbish. Either way, I think he's a very self effacing man - hardly egotistical - loud, brash and self opinionated not withstanding, he's successful because people enjoy his outlandish and humorous points of view. You're welcome to disagree, but this being a democracy, we're allowed to take the opposing view to yourself - so perhap's it's better to just agree to disagree on this one and call it a day?

[Stoo]

Dabeeenster is a moderator - His name is in red, and at the bottom of the main QT forum it mentions the main moderators for that forum section:

Moderators: DaBeeeenster, Moby-Dick, Zak33, CocoPops

Back to the topic please guys

[dangel]

Dabeeenster is a moderator - His name is in red, and at the bottom of the main QT forum it mentions the main moderators for that forum section:



Back to the topic please guys

Whoops Edited in light of this.

Which topic? This thread swings between discussion on energy sources to clarkson on top gear

[Stoo]

Pick one and split the other off in a new thread

[G4Z]

Right, I have only one point to make due to the pedantry on teh def of biodiesel.

Here goes your wrong, your wrong, your wrong. (feel better now)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

"Chemically, transesterified biodiesel comprises a mix of mono-alkyl esters of long chain fatty acids. The most common form uses methanol to produce methyl esters as it is the cheapest alcohol available, though ethanol can be used to produce an ethyl ester biodiesel and higher alcohols such as isopropanol and butanol have also been used. Using alcohols of higher molecular weights improves the cold flow properties of the resulting ester, at the cost of a less efficient transesterification reaction. A byproduct of the transesterification process is the production of glycerol. A lipid transesterification production process is used to convert the base oil to the desired esters. Any Free fatty acids (FFAs) in the base oil are either converted to soap and removed from the process, or they are esterified (yielding more biodiesel) using an acidic catalyst. After this processing, unlike straight vegetable oil, biodiesel has combustion properties very similar to those of petroleum diesel, and can replace it in most current uses. Small scale Biodiesel processors are now available for personal and small commercial organisations."

I know the article is talking about E85 (i.e 85% ethanol, not ethyl easter biodiesel) however Biodiesel is a pretty wide definition.

Suppose ethanol is a biodiesel because... oh yeah it comes from an organic source.

[Nat101]

Oh I see; if you can't successfully insinuate ignorance, then hell, accuse 'em of pedantry, instead.

I know the article is talking about E85 (i.e 85% ethanol, not ethyl easter biodiesel) however Biodiesel is a pretty wide definition.

And previously...

Its an Interesting read and for those touting biodiesel you should know that it is in fact 15% regular diesel so is not likely to be a solution all on its own.

Its not a case of pendantry, you simply misrepresented the facts detailed in the article you linked to. Nice try, though!

Suppose ethanol is a biodiesel because... oh yeah it comes from an organic source.

Whats diesel then? Moon juice?! Let just start referring to petroleum diesel as biodiesel, too! :eyesrollingoutofhead:

[G4Z]

"Diesel or Diesel fuel is a specific fractional distillate of fuel oil (mostly petroleum) that is used as fuel in a diesel engine invented by German engineer Rudolf Diesel. The term typically refers to fuel that has been processed from petroleum, but increasingly, alternatives such as biodiesel or biomass to liquid (BTL) or gas to liquid (GTL) diesel that are not derived from petroleum are being developed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel

So it is apparently Deisel that is the broad term now, not biodiesel. I did not misrepresent anything, if anything maybe I should have said biofuel and not biodiesel to avoid your pedantry, but the point is still the same.

Whats diesel then? Moon juice?! Let just start referring to petroleum diesel as biodiesel, too! :eyesrollingoutofhead:

Tell you what why dont I get pedantic and mention that petroleum diesel is a biofuel because of that fact it comes from an organic (or biological..) source.

Stupid thing to debate this. You were being pedantic.

[neonplanet40]

G4Z is right tbh. Not taking sides or nothing but he even has the proof to back up his arguments :S

This thread will go on for a few weeks me thinks...

[G4Z]

bah, Im gonna have to retract a little here, B100 (biodiesel) does seem to be distinctly different to biofuels like ethanol. i will state in my defence that the names are a little confusing and I would be interested to see how many different sized petrol nozzles we will need in the future so people dont put the wrong fuel in their engines.

I am not a Petrochem expert, so I hold my hands up and admit I got the terminolgy wrong but the point was that the article looks at the alternatives and weghs them up, and a clear answer is yet to be seen.

[herulach]

bah, Im gonna have to retract a little here, B100 (biodiesel) does seem to be distinctly different to biofuels like ethanol. i will state in my defence that the names are a little confusing and I would be interested to see how many different sized petrol nozzles we will need in the future so people dont put the wrong fuel in their engines.

I am not a Petrochem expert, so I hold my hands up and admit I got the terminolgy wrong but the point was that the article looks at the alternatives and weghs them up, and a clear answer is yet to be seen.

2, same as now, biodiesel runs in diesel engines (i.e no spark plugs) ethanol runs in petrol engines (i.e. spark to ignite)