SCAN bad for RMA's?

[firsttimebuyer]

thanks for your insight

Well thats a little offputting, if i am going to drop that much money i want to make sure i get it right as its not like i have this spare cash coming in all the time. I was considering waiting until January as supposedly ATI will be brining out new cards that will support DirX 11, not sure how reliable that info is, more of a rumor as far as i know. I do have a Lian Li PC-P80B case which is Crossfire certified and i think a special Spider design of the chassis was released, it should be capable of cooling a multi-card set-up or atleast as good as they can be cooled but that said i am not sure if i want to take the risk i wont get heat issues also.

I would go nvidia, at the moment i have 1 8800GTX, its been one of the best high end purchases i have ever made. Its lasted since December 06 and is still going strong now, it can play all the games i want it to but it is starting to show its age in some of the newer games. The problem is though i really want to go SLI/Crossfire but if i went Nvidia i would not have access to SLI, whether that be sensible or not but its been shown with the new Intel i7 that multi-card set ups are starting to scale a bit better. It seems GPU manufacturers are going with the multi GPU/Card solution for the high-end, not just 1 card that will do the job. Maybe that chip blowing was telling me something, i dont know i might re-evaluate how i will spend the money, maybe work in a new motherboard. I think Nvidia's new 55nm offerings will be out in November/December, not sure i would want to wait till January, there is a chance that the "extra money" would slowly be eaten up paying everyday bills etc, which has happened before.

[Saracen]

You say one thing and then another, your all over the place, one minute you state that all it means is they are asking to return it to ASUS for a second opinion, now your saying it clearly states that it did not meet their criteria and SCAN have rejected the RMA but ASUS might not.

Lets just leave it at that, its not important what the waiver asks, its signed and sent. Others can see it so they can make their own mind up how clear or not it is, not all of us have studied law or have a indepth knowledge of it.

Jeez what a guy you are , you would make a great lawyer ^^, i was getting really confused. I read it and understood it to mean exactly what you quote above, so i wondered why i thought it was inclear before and then i remember its because you said it just meant they would like permission to send it to ASUS for a second opinion. So yes then if you go by what you say above then its clear i agree.

Oh for pities sake.

When will you actually start reading what people wrote, not reading into it what you want. I've said the same thing consistently, and am not "all over the place".

The FIRST point I referred to that waiver was post #41.

Reading that quite carefully, and it appears to not be a literal copy in all parts, I can't see how the consumer is signing anything away. It seems simply that all the consumer is acknowledging is that they've been told Scan have rejected the warranty claim, not that the consumer agrees with that or won't pursue it.

Thing is, Scan have to be careful not to do anything that could be interpreted, later and perhaps by a court, as implicit acceptance of liability.

It seems to me that what that waiver is saying, is :-

1) We've rejected the warranty claim
2) You Accept that we've rejected it.
3) We're prepared to try to help by sending it to the manufacturer, but ONLY if you confirm that you won't treat that as us accepting liability.

......

It seems from Scan's rejection that they think it's physical damage. But they aren't the experts that Asus are. So, given that that is their opinion, they'd be quite entitled to just send it back to firsttimebuyer, and "wash their hands of it". But they haven't. They've agreed to send it to Asus. They aren't obliged to do so, and it's probably going to cost them money to do so. It's certainly costing them in administration.

I think the point of that waiver is being misinterpreted. What they're really saying is that they'll try to help, but not if they'll drop themselves in the poop by even trying.

Far from that form washing their hands of the board, it actually is evidence they are trying to help, even though they seem to feel the problem is physical damage, and want Asus' opinion on what may have caused the damage. Maybe, as Agent said, another component failure is the cause. Maybe a voltage regulator failed, and that "physical damage" is a sign of damage caused by a failure somewhere else, and Asus may have seen it before.

I think the waiver is being misinterpreted about exactly what is being waived.

I said it again in post #51

It's not a waiver stating that the customer accepts that the rejection was correct, or that he's giving away any rights. It's a waiver giving permission for Scan to send a board THEY regard as rejected to Asus.

Once again ....

A) Scan have rejected it
B) You are acknowledging that they rejected it
C) You are NOT acknowledging that you accept they are right to reject it, just that they have.

I'm not sure how many more ways there are to put it. Read back in post #41 about ways of incurring liability.

What Scan are getting you to sign a waiver about is that they are not accepting liability by returning the board to Asus, because without that waiver, you could later make that claim.

It's simple. They've rejected liability. Period.

However, without incurring liability, they're willing to return the board to Asus. They don't have to. But they will. But ONLY if you accept that them doing that is not to be construed as an admission of liability.

But it's YOUR choice. They'll help as long as they aren't dropping themselves into liability by doing so, hence the waiver. Again, in post #51, I said

It's not removing any rights from the buyer, and it's not accepting Scan's rejection. He could still contest that.

Then post #54.

Well, the way it reads to me is that Scan are rejecting the warranty claim.

and

And that seems to be where this is at. Scan have already rejected the warranty claim. That's what that note says.

As such Scan Computers cannot take any further direct action in providing a replacement unit at this time. Normal procedures would leave us with no alternative but to reject your warranty and take no further action.

That's why I say I can't see how it does you any harm. I can't see how it can be construed as you in any way waiving such rights to take it further. But what it does do is give Scan permission to send the board on to Asus for their opinion. And, given that it presumably has an Asus warranty, then if Asus conclude that the fault was with component failure, etc, then presumably they'll tell Scan that and a replacement board would be forthcoming.

.......

So Scan have rejected the claim, which leaves you with the choice of letting Asus take a look, or of trying to convince Scan why they're wrong to reject it, or trying to convince a court why they were wrong to do so. It seems to me that the best bet is to go along with the Asus route, especially as it doesn't preclude you falling back on the court route if that doesn't work. But if you do opt for the court route, based on what's been said so far, I don't know that I fancy your chances.

.....

And again in post #64

The way I read it, ftb, is that Scan have rejected the RMA. It doesn't meet their criteria. But as I said earlier, their guarantee isn't the only thing you can rely on. You can still pursue your legal rights, but it may well involve going to court. Or .... you can see if the manufacturer warranty covers you. And that, it seems to me, is what Scan are saying with that waiver. Scan've rejected the RMA, but the manufacturer might not, and they're prepared to send it to them if you wish. Alternatively, they'll sent it back to you and you could take it up with Asus, or pursue you legal options.

But in any event, it reads to me like Scan's decision is to reject the RMA.

As for a second opinion, well yeah, perhaps. Asus may look at it and decide it's component failure. Or they might just replace on a goodwill basis. Either way, you'd get a replacement. But I can't see Asus' opinion having much effect on Scan's decision.

I haven't bothered to go through any more posts, but how many times do I have to say I think Scan have rejected the RMA.

It's simple. Scan have rejected the RMA. You can dispute that with them, and you may or may not get them to change their mind. If they don't, you can use the courts, and you may or may not win.

Or, you can (and have) sign the waiver and they'll send the board to Asus, but only if you sign it, because they aren't prepared to risk liability by sending it.

If you sign it, you :-

- ARE accepting that sending it doesn't incur liability on their part
- are NOT accepting that they were right to reject it
- are NOT signing away your legal rights under consumer legislation.

One more thing. You can't sign away your consumer rights like that, because regardless of what Scan get you to sign, statute says you can't. And moreover, if a retailer tries to deceive a consumer about what their rights are, not only does statute make it unenforceable, but they'd probably be committing a criminal offence by doing so.

You say one thing and then another, your all over the place, one minute you state that all it means is they are asking to return it to ASUS for a second opinion, now your saying it clearly states that it did not meet their criteria and SCAN have rejected the RMA but ASUS might not.

Yes, Scan have rejected it, and yes, Asus might not.

Why?

Two reasons -

- Asus have better in-depth knowledge, as maker, than Scan do as a seller
- Asus might have liabilty under their warranty that Scan don't under theirs.

I've been through that warranty/legal rights thing in a previous post too. You have statutory rights (mainly against the seller), you might have warranty rights against the seller and you might have warranty rights against the manufacturer. That's three levels of possible coverage, and just because one doesn't cover you doesn't mean the others might not. So yes, it's been rejected by Scan, and that's quite consistent with Asus not rejecting it, either because they can better understand the cause of the problem, or because their warranty is different. This is covered in post #54.


You say I'm all over the place. I've tried explaining the same thing over and again, in different ways and with different levels of detail, and all I get for it is accusations of being "all over the place".

..... not all of us have studied law or have a indepth knowledge of it.

Perhaps not. But presumably we are all :-

- adult
- mentally competent.

If so, we're deemed capable of entering contracts. And therefore, of understanding what we're entering. That waiver isn't written in legalese. It's written in plain English. Break it down.

As such Scan Computers cannot take any further direct action in providing a replacement unit at this time. Normal procedures would leave us with no alternative but to reject your warranty and take no further action.

Translation : Scan have rejected the RMA.

However, as a company with a high priority in Customer Service it has been agreed with a line manager to return the item directly to the relevant manufacturer on your behalf in an attempt to source a replacement.

Translation: We don't have to do squat, but for the sake of Customer Relations, we'll try to help.

In doing so we have to make clear this is NOT an acceptance of fault or guarantee that we will be successful in obtaining a replacement for you, we will try our best for you, acting above and beyond our normal operating procedures, we will do this as quickly and as swiftly as we possible can, however, no timeframe can be guaranteed.

Translation: By helping, we're not accepting liability. We'll get this do as quick as we can, but not timescale can be guaranteed as the board will be out of our hands.

As such we need you to sign the agreement form below, which acts as your acceptance to this action.

Translation: If you want us to do this, sign below. If not, we'll send the board back to you.


Really, how hard is it?

[SiM]

Wow, that post took up almost 4000 lines of screen resolution... that must be a record

[strike-down]

firsttimebuyer, one thing I would say (I dont know saracen from the next person i see on the street, and havent had anything to do with him on hexus until now) but from what I've seen in his posts, he is up to speed on pretty much everything and has tried to help you understand whats going on.
You however seem to have an attitude problem in this thread. Im not here to start petty arguments, but the way you have been expressing yourself is NOT likely to generate feelings of goodwill from anyone as saracen pointed out. Before you reply next time, take a step back and actually understand whats being said.

[Saracen]

.....

As for Overclockers, i dont really know if they try and hide things on their forum, i have never had to use it. ......

As an ex-OcUK moderator, I DO know what they do ... or at least, what they did. I haven't been there for several years and it may have changed, but the rule certainly used to be that shop business was not to be discussed on the forums, and as far as I know, it still is. And as mods, we would remove any such posts and if people wouldn't accept that and kept bringing it back up, they'd be banned.

But you can make credible arguments in favour of doing it that way. Personally, I think if service is good then it's a missed opportunity, but it's a business decision and they didn't want to do it that way. And as it's their business, it's their decision, and I think it'd be a mistake to read too much into them not being willing to discuss such things in the open.

[Saracen]

Wow, that post took up almost 4000 lines of screen resolution... that must be a record

Nah .... too much of it was quotes, trying to put a time line on it and demonstrating I've been saying the same thing from the start, albeit phrasing it differently. And, of course, trying to explain what I think is behind it, so that hopefully, the whole thing would make more sense.

[Naan_H]

Firsttimebuyer, i hope you dont mind me hijacking your thread, as I feel i should add my 2p's worth to this discussion about my experience with scan...

First of all scan/hexus, i just want to congratulate you on giving us, the consumers, a forum to discuss matters that are shop related. As mentioned earlier, other retailers do not offer such a service so well done guys on getting this set up.

Now, in the last couple of months i had developed a problem with a scan 8800gtx card. I have a thread on it on page 2 of this forum, and the thread is now locked ( http://forums.hexus.net/scan-care-he...ease-help.html ) . To cut a long story short, the card just wasnt working properly, it was erratic and would randomly not show anything on screen when booting up, including going into windows. it would go for days working absolutely fine, then for like a whole day i would get a black screen, windows will load but just a black screen. i have tested the card in many comps and the problem remained, random black screens. Now the issue was that it was a scan card, and i had bought the card 1 year ago exactly. i called up scan on monday 20/10/08 and was told the warranty had ran out on 18/10/08. i would have liked to have called on the 19th but scan was closed on sundays. so basically i had just missed out. anyway i went on to post on the forums asking exactly what has been written in the forum post and you can see it for yourself.

First of all, i posted a link in that page that showed somebody saying that the scan card has a 2 year warranty; i wanted this clarified by scan themselves (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=103318) . I appreciate that Lee@Scan forwarded on my concerns to the relevant department; but the response i got was pretty shocking:

Hi

This thread will now be locked, you have been advised you are out of warranty and as such we cannot issue a RMA for you.

Wesley
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand that it was out of warranty by hours and i understand you may think i could be pulling your leg and that the fault just happened and i made it sound like it happened weeks ago. the fact is i wanted to make sure it was something wrong definitely with the card before i contacted you. Due to unforseen circumstances and strenuous work commitments, i could not get in touch with you before the 18th. Anyway, i had a lot of questions that needed answering, and frankly the reply i got was pretty abysmal. Not at any stage did you even attempt to answer my queries in your reply wesley.

I understand you are busy and must get lots of cowboys trying to scam things off you. But i have bought a fair few things over the years from Scan (and very happy with the service too i might add), and there is no reason for me to scam you. But you mention in this thread that you go beyond the call of duty to help your customers. in my personal experience you dont. I was really peeved by the reply in that thread, and it took 3 weeks for me to get it. Its a pretty cold hearted reply and you locked the thread? for what reason? I had plenty of questions still to be answered and others that needed asking, like if i could get an RMA directly from the manufacturer? Who was the manufacturer?. And exactly about the warranty status; how long was it as i found somewhere that said it was 2 years??. I was nothing but polite in that thread and it is not in my nature to complain, and is why i havent done so to date, but i thought i had to come here and vent the frustration i had, just like the OP has.

In contrast, i just want to tell you about an RMA i had to do once with another e-tailer. Strangley enough, my old PSU died exaclty one year after i bought it and was out of warranty by a couple of days; they kindly accepted it and sent me a new, better quality and more expensive PSU. That was great service, great communication all the way and it felt good that they actually listened to my problems. It was just unfortunate the way it happend 2 days late but out of their goodwill they sent me a new one.

I was hoping the same here or at least a dialogue between the consumer and the retailer, but in all honestly there was no dialogue at all, as the thread was locked before i could say anything! Come on guys thats just not on.We can all learn something from this; for me , not to buy OEM again. For scan, ill let you decide what you can learn from it! Unfortunately for you guys i have had to take my business elsewhere

Apologies in advance if i have offended anyone at all in this post.

[firsttimebuyer]

any chance you can help Naan H out guys (SCAN) (if he/she still wants you to).

Its a great oppertunity to show just how great SCAN is and how wrong i am about you .

[Chris P]

firsttimebuyer / Naan_H

We sympathise, however the card purchased included a 1 Year warranty which expired. Even though this may have been just out of warranty the fact remains that regrettably the Warranty had expired and we cannot process RMA's once the warranty has expired.

I am afraid that there will be no change to this decision and the correct decision was made at the time, based on the fact the card was out of warranty. If we had processed this RMA for a product, which was out of warranty then how many other Customer's would also expect the same..

Best Regards


Regards

[wesleyaldred]

Naan H

Firstly please accept my apologise if my decision to lock the thread seemed harsh. The fact remains the item in question does have a 1 year warranty only.

I have reveiwed the thread link you refer to and can confirm the seller has indeed misadvised the sale as the Scan OEM card's ALL carry a 12 month warranty, further warranty is NON TRANSFERABLE so in this case the seller you linked to has further mis-sold the item as indeed by selling the item on the card is now left with no warranty at all.

I hope this answers the questions you have raised.

Wesley

[firsttimebuyer]

Naan H

Firstly please accept my apologise if my decision to lock the thread seemed harsh. The fact remains the item in question does have a 1 year warranty only.

I have reveiwed the thread link you refer to and can confirm the seller has indeed misadvised the sale as the Scan OEM card's ALL carry a 12 month warranty, further warranty is NON TRANSFERABLE so in this case the seller you linked to has further mis-sold the item as indeed by selling the item on the card is now left with no warranty at all.

I hope this answers the questions you have raised.

Wesley

Nice one Wesley, sometimes a kind word can go a long way, getting defensive does not help.

I can see the why you had to make the decision about Naan H graphics card, if they do it for 1 then they would have to start doing it for all.

I do sympathise with you Naan and it sucks there is nothing they can do (i was hoping my little joke might give them a little push towards helping you). I do try and stay away from these OEM cards because of their short warranties but it seems even going for the longer warranties cant guarantee you will have your item replaced, atleast without a bit of hassel.

keep up the good work Saracen, for those who think i had a problem with him your mistaken.

[Naan_H]

Thanks guys for the replies; i fully understand your position scan and cant really complain; its my own fault i didnt get in contact in time but hey thats life...when laying down £300 a 1 year warranty really isnt enough, so no OEM products for me when spending that much!

I do appreciate your replies in this thread and you have made those issues clear to me clear to me now; thanks for sorting that out. And thanks for checking that thread out wesley.

i think that 2 year warranty issue came from a post in this thread ( http://forums.hexus.net/scan-care-he...e-8800gtx.html ) where a scan member of staff mistakenly said it had a two year warranty, but then at a later date corrected himself and said it was 1 year.

Thanks again scan. FTB, i hope Asus sort your board out; unfortunately it seems like you will have to wait a while to hear from them and who knows if they will ever get to the bottom of it!

[EzyRyder]

UK is in Europe. In Europe every single electrical/electronic item has got 2 years warranty. I am sure you could pursue it that way.

[LORD DAVROS]

Just a little more info for you FIRST TIME BUYER on those 4870x2 cards .

As you know from my reply earlier i fitted one of these from Sapphire and it proved to be faulty and scan exchanged it for me and did it in 3 days flat..

Well the new one came so I fitted it and after doing ALLOT MORE research into flashing the bios to alter the fan settings I have decided that I was not prepared to void my warranty to sort it out. On top of that I still had the issues of unreadable numbers in hammer.
If you don't know what hammer is its the level editor for half-life, half-life2 deathmatch and several other steam games and I am a keen mapper for deathmatch and with a friend run my own clan called [ TSF ]

Any way unfortunately I have decided that I cannot live with these problems and was going to RMA it and get a nvidia 280 of about the same value .

BUT and here is my point for you.........................

I decided to 3D marks 06 test the card b4 outing it, also I would do a back to back test for FPS in crysis... compared to my XFX 9800 GTX (and my 9800 is not even a plus card)

RESULTS..... ......... ..... .. .. .. . .. .
3Dmks 06 good with just over 23000 points but i expected this with the 2 gpus LOL

Now here is the downer for you m8
using fraps for testing the FPS I went to the spot in crysis where its dark is and you have to run up a hill being bombarded with shells and you come to a cliff that looks out over a big bay, there are a couple of boats going round a small island in the middle of the bay and in the distance you can see your target on the horizon...I hope you all know where i mean.
scanning around slowly I looked for the worst spot to look where the FPS was at its lowest.
game settings were set to high not very high and the fps was only32 FPS ...

So I uninstalled the 4870x2 and reinstalled my 9800. Obviously I wont bother to tell you the 3D mks 06 score as it was now where near the 20000 as you would expect. BUT the fps going to exactly the same spot in crysis, using the same settings for graphics and again looking round to find the lowest FPS spot which was looking in pretty much the same spot down at the water the fps was up to 38 FPS..

Now my rig is a maximus extreme mobo Qx 9650 extreme cpu ocz ddr3 platinum 2 x 2 gig of ram and a corsair 620 wat psu which my m8 at scan told me was actually under rated as they are actually 750 wat supplies. Over clocked to 450 fsb with the multiplier at 9 I have no heat issues as the NB and CPU are water cooled and under full load my cpu only reaches 56 C.
I know that the difference was only 6 FPS but i did repeat the test twice and although it was only 6 FPS you would expect the 4870x2 to be at least slightly better than my 9800. So my guess is that either they haven't got the driver right yet or the game writers are still writing to-wards Nvidia.
If you want any more card comparisons I will post again tomorrow as I have now got an RMA from scan and the 4870x2 is winging its way back as I ordered a Nvidia 280 evga superclock today from LEE P at scan.

Hope this helps you decide what card or cards to get.. I have to say that I will more than likely NEVER go back to ATI cards But lets wait and see what results I get from the 280 ...

[Nelly.]

Only just read this thread again, now apart from all this legal lingo & fancy words for people with brains & phd's here is what I meant.

Just out of interest, I know every e-tailor is different, but a guy who purchased an Asus motherboard from OcUK had waited over 28 days for an RMA from Asus, he had actually contacted Trading Standards who mentioned 28 days for a motherboard RMA.

He didn't recieve his board back within the time frame, he contacted OcUK & they came back to him offering him an equivelant product or his money back. I can even dig out the actual post on the OcUK Forums.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17886154

I'll say this, OcUK may charge ridiculous markup's but their RMA service is top notch.

The morale of the story will be, don't buy Asus motherboards if RMA is a concern to you, at least with Gigabyte you would get an answer within a few working days.

Asus do have a UK RMA base but you can count your chickens they just ship it off to taiwan to deal with lol.

Don't be surprised to wait 6 to 8 weeks.

[Saracen]

UK is in Europe. In Europe every single electrical/electronic item has got 2 years warranty. I am sure you could pursue it that way.

No, you couldn't pursue it that way, because that isn't the case. It's a misinterpretation, and a common misconception because of confusing terminology, and you don't have a two-year product warranty.

What you're talking about is the implementation in member states of EU directive 99/44/EC, and the confusion between what is termed a "legal guarantee" in much of Europe and "consumer rights" in the UK, as opposed to the EU definition of "commercial guarantee" which equates to a seller or manufacturer warranty (or guarantee) in the UK.

The effect if that directive is to stipulate that EU states must have a "legal guarantee" of a minimum of two years. The problem is that the definition of "legal guarantee" is what we have implemented in the Sale of Goods Act and the various amendments, that is, the usual stipulations about goods having to conform to contract at the time of sale, and the provisions that they must be :-

- as described
- fit for the purpose
- of satisfactory quality, etc.

The EU directive itself is NOT law in any EU member state. What it is is a binding commitment on member states to implement in domestic legislation laws that comply with at least the minimums specified in the mandatory parts of that directive ... and not all parts are mandatory.

The two-year provision you refer to requires that goods must conform to contract, as specified above, and that consumers have two years to take action if they don't. The UK implementation of that comes from the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended, several times), which stipulates the conformity requirements (fitness for purpose, etc). But in the UK, to take action on such issues, you must do so within the time limits set down by the Limitations Act 1980, which in the case of such civil disputes is 6 years from date of sale in England and Wales and, IIRC, 5 years from date of discovery in Scotland.

So, the EU legislation stipulates what must be complied with, and in almost all regards, the UK already had that in place by virtue of the SoGA, and that the time period for action was two years, which the UK had already had set to 6 years since 1980, at least.


That EU directive is NOT specifying that shops etc have to give products a 2 year warranty on products. That would be the "commercial guarantee" part. The EU directive is laying down minimum requirements for consumer protection legislation, but it's just called "legal guarantee" in the EU, which is not what it's called in the UK.

Specifically, the rights the consumer gets are defined in Article 3 and the time periods in Article 5. In relation to the two years, it's 5(1).



The short version of the above is that that 2 year EU rule gives you a minimum of two years within which legal action must have commenced, as as that time period has been 6 years within the UK for several decades, in didn't change our domestic legislation one jot (in that regard) since we already massively exceeded the minimum time period.

It DID, however, impact in a few other areas. I've already mentioned in earlier posts that manufacturer warranties didn't used to be legally binding, and that they now are, and that there are other aspects of them that are now mandated, such as availability and the use of clear English. That sort of provision was implemented as a result of that EU directive, but ftb, your situation hasn't altered at all because of it. You do NOT have a two year "commercial guarantee" on goods because of it, and you don't have a two year "legal guarantee" because you already had a six year one. All it means is you can. as I said ages ago, sue via the courts ..... but if you do, you need to be able to prove that the fault was inherent at time of sale. It takes you no further forward, I'm afraid.