Page 87 of 125 FirstFirst ... 37475767778485868788899097107117 ... LastLast
Results 1,377 to 1,392 of 1986

Thread: AMD - Zen chitchat

  1. #1377
    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    30,073
    Thanks
    3,408
    Thanked
    4,729 times in 3,651 posts
    • CAT-THE-FIFTH's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Less E-PEEN
      • CPU:
      • Massive E-PEEN
      • Memory:
      • RGB E-PEEN
      • Storage:
      • Not in any order
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVEN BIGGER E-PEEN
      • PSU:
      • OVERSIZED
      • Case:
      • UNDERSIZED
      • Operating System:
      • DOS 6.22
      • Monitor(s):
      • NOT USUALLY ON....WHEN I POST
      • Internet:
      • FUNCTIONAL

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    I had an interesting thought regarding all this raytracing stuff. Navi was rumoured to be a MCM type setup with multiple identical chips,trying to appear as one GPU to software. Apparently this is hard to do and AMD said Navi was a normal GPU. However,what if Navi or a future AMD GPU line are normal monolithic GPUs but using IF to integrate a co-processor for things like ray tracing?? Hence two smaller chips on a MCM.

    It probably won't happen,but I thought it would be an alternate way forwards,instead of large chips??


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

  2. #1378
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Gateshead
    Posts
    15,186
    Thanks
    1,227
    Thanked
    2,289 times in 1,872 posts
    • scaryjim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Dell Inspiron
      • CPU:
      • Core i5 8250U
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4GB DDR4 2666
      • Storage:
      • 128GB M.2 SSD + 1TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon R5 230
      • PSU:
      • Battery/Dell brick
      • Case:
      • Dell Inspiron 5570
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 15" 1080p laptop panel

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    … using IF to integrate a co-processor for things like ray tracing?? Hence two smaller chips on a MCM.

    It probably won't happen,but I thought it would be an alternate way forwards,instead of large chips??
    I'm pretty sure that at some point MCMs will become the way forward for GPUs, but AFAIK at the minute the extra latency of taking trips off-die is just too high to make it effective. OTOH having on-die IF linking modular logic blocks might make it easier for AMD to provide different levels of ray-tracing capability on different GPUs, if they can come up with a repeatable block that can be implemented multiple times...

  3. #1379
    Oh Crumbs.... Biscuit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    N. Yorkshire
    Posts
    11,193
    Thanks
    1,392
    Thanked
    1,091 times in 833 posts
    • Biscuit's system
      • Motherboard:
      • MSI B450M Mortar
      • CPU:
      • AMD 2700X (Be Quiet! Dark Rock 3)
      • Memory:
      • 16GB Patriot Viper 2 @ 3466MHz
      • Storage:
      • 500GB WD Black
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Sapphire R9 290X Vapor-X
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic Focus Gold 750W
      • Case:
      • Lian Li PC-V359
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 x64
      • Internet:
      • BT Infinity 80/20

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    I had an interesting thought regarding all this raytracing stuff. Navi was rumoured to be a MCM type setup with multiple identical chips,trying to appear as one GPU to software. Apparently this is hard to do and AMD said Navi was a normal GPU. However,what if Navi or a future AMD GPU line are normal monolithic GPUs but using IF to integrate a co-processor for things like ray tracing?? Hence two smaller chips on a MCM.

    It probably won't happen,but I thought it would be an alternate way forwards,instead of large chips??
    I think, just as Jim said, this is inevitable.

    I think a lot of the progress with MCM will happen on CPU before it makes its way to GPU. Threadripper is really just the start in a long path of advancements.
    Suppose we could a parallel compute card that really isn't for gaming at all, but uses GPU-based-tech with MCM for better yeilds.

    For data centre/AI/science that could be pretty useful.

  4. #1380
    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    30,073
    Thanks
    3,408
    Thanked
    4,729 times in 3,651 posts
    • CAT-THE-FIFTH's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Less E-PEEN
      • CPU:
      • Massive E-PEEN
      • Memory:
      • RGB E-PEEN
      • Storage:
      • Not in any order
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVEN BIGGER E-PEEN
      • PSU:
      • OVERSIZED
      • Case:
      • UNDERSIZED
      • Operating System:
      • DOS 6.22
      • Monitor(s):
      • NOT USUALLY ON....WHEN I POST
      • Internet:
      • FUNCTIONAL

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Have people seen this:

    https://sconedocs.github.io/microcode/
    https://labs.vmware.com/flings/vmwar...river/comments

    That is the microcode update for Intel CPUs under Linux for the Foreshadow vulnerability which points to this:

    https://downloadmirror.intel.com/280...e-20180807.tgz

    The latest microcode updates are listed here so its a valid link:

    https://downloadcenter.intel.com/dow...-Data-File?v=t

    Now if you download,look at the license,which says this:

    https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/z2F3Cj6R8Q/

    3. LICENSE RESTRICTIONS. All right, title and interest in and to the Software
    and associated documentation are and will remain the exclusive property of
    Intel and its licensors or suppliers. Unless expressly permitted under the
    Agreement, You will not, and will not allow any third party to (i) use, copy,
    distribute, sell or offer to sell the Software or associated documentation;
    (ii) modify, adapt, enhance, disassemble, decompile, reverse engineer, change
    or create derivative works from the Software except and only to the extent as
    specifically required by mandatory applicable laws or any applicable third
    party license terms accompanying the Software; (iii) use or make the Software
    available for the use or benefit of third parties; or (iv) use the Software on
    Your products other than those that include the Intel hardware product(s),
    platform(s), or software identified in the Software; or (v) publish or provide
    any Software benchmark or comparison test results.
    You acknowledge that an
    essential basis of the bargain in this Agreement is that Intel grants You no
    licenses or other rights including, but not limited to, patent, copyright,
    trade secret, trademark, trade name, service mark or other intellectual
    property licenses or rights with respect to the Software and associated
    documentation, by implication, estoppel or otherwise, except for the licenses
    expressly granted above. You acknowledge there are significant uses of the
    Software in its original, unmodified and uncombined form. You may not remove
    any copyright notices from the Software.
    Wait,wut?? People can't benchmark the effect of the microcode update??


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

  5. #1381
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    West Sussex
    Posts
    1,209
    Thanks
    104
    Thanked
    167 times in 152 posts
    • kompukare's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus P8Z77-V LX
      • CPU:
      • Intel i5-3570K
      • Memory:
      • 2 x 8GB Crucial Ballistix Elite PC3-14900
      • Storage:
      • Crucial MX200 | Sandisk Extreme 120GB SSD | WDC 1TB Green | Samsung 1Tb Spinpoint
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Sapphire R9 290 VaporX 7950
      • PSU:
      • Antec 650 Gold TruePower (Seasonic) or Seasonic SII-330
      • Case:
      • Aerocool DS 200 (silenced, 53.6 litres)l)
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10-64
      • Monitor(s):
      • 2 x Dell P2414H

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Wait,wut?? People can't benchmark the effect of the microcode update??
    That seems an incredible abuse of power and display of corporate arrogance.
    Actually, I think this deserves its own thread in as many forums as possible.

    EDIT:
    Doesn't this mean that logically Intel CPUs can no longer be benchmarked or reviewed at all from now on?

    Because otherwise the details of any tests would read something like this:
    All benches were run with the latest patches, drivers, and updates except for the Intel CPUs where the performance impact of the latest security patches is top secret and we may not disclose their performance impact.
    Last edited by kompukare; 22-08-2018 at 06:41 AM.

  6. #1382
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    29,900
    Thanks
    1,624
    Thanked
    3,054 times in 2,477 posts
    • kalniel's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra
      • CPU:
      • Intel i9 9900k
      • Memory:
      • 32GB DDR4 3200 CL16
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Samsung 970Evo+ NVMe
      • Graphics card(s):
      • nVidia GTX 1060 6GB
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic 600W
      • Case:
      • Cooler Master HAF 912
      • Operating System:
      • Win 10 Pro x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell U2311H
      • Internet:
      • rubbish

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    The comparison clause is usually included in beta software, I'm surprised if it's present in any release version. That said, I also haven't seen any such terms and conditions when applying updates to computers.

  7. #1383
    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    30,073
    Thanks
    3,408
    Thanked
    4,729 times in 3,651 posts
    • CAT-THE-FIFTH's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Less E-PEEN
      • CPU:
      • Massive E-PEEN
      • Memory:
      • RGB E-PEEN
      • Storage:
      • Not in any order
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVEN BIGGER E-PEEN
      • PSU:
      • OVERSIZED
      • Case:
      • UNDERSIZED
      • Operating System:
      • DOS 6.22
      • Monitor(s):
      • NOT USUALLY ON....WHEN I POST
      • Internet:
      • FUNCTIONAL

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by kompukare View Post
    That seems an incredible abuse of power and display of corporate arrogance.
    Actually, I think this deserves its own thread in as many forums as possible.

    EDIT:
    Doesn't this mean that logically Intel CPUs can no longer be benchmarked or reviewed at all from now on?

    Because otherwise the details of any tests would read something like this:
    Read the other parts of the clause which says the US government is not allowed to benchmark,them of the fact to read the clause you need to download the software which means you are bound by the clause.

    Well other parts of the clause have annoyed Debian:

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/0...patch_licence/

    Also,I won't purport to be a Linux expert so do you want me to start a new thread here or do you want to??


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

  8. #1384
    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    30,073
    Thanks
    3,408
    Thanked
    4,729 times in 3,651 posts
    • CAT-THE-FIFTH's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Less E-PEEN
      • CPU:
      • Massive E-PEEN
      • Memory:
      • RGB E-PEEN
      • Storage:
      • Not in any order
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVEN BIGGER E-PEEN
      • PSU:
      • OVERSIZED
      • Case:
      • UNDERSIZED
      • Operating System:
      • DOS 6.22
      • Monitor(s):
      • NOT USUALLY ON....WHEN I POST
      • Internet:
      • FUNCTIONAL

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Also a rumour AMD might launch APUs on 7NM by the end of the year:

    https://videocardz.com/77660/exprevi...d-of-this-year


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

  9. #1385
    Oh Crumbs.... Biscuit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    N. Yorkshire
    Posts
    11,193
    Thanks
    1,392
    Thanked
    1,091 times in 833 posts
    • Biscuit's system
      • Motherboard:
      • MSI B450M Mortar
      • CPU:
      • AMD 2700X (Be Quiet! Dark Rock 3)
      • Memory:
      • 16GB Patriot Viper 2 @ 3466MHz
      • Storage:
      • 500GB WD Black
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Sapphire R9 290X Vapor-X
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic Focus Gold 750W
      • Case:
      • Lian Li PC-V359
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 x64
      • Internet:
      • BT Infinity 80/20

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Also a rumour AMD might launch APUs on 7NM by the end of the year:

    https://videocardz.com/77660/exprevi...d-of-this-year
    Would make sense as the 2xxx series APU's were released with Zen+ before the full Zen+ release IIRC?

  10. #1386
    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    30,073
    Thanks
    3,408
    Thanked
    4,729 times in 3,651 posts
    • CAT-THE-FIFTH's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Less E-PEEN
      • CPU:
      • Massive E-PEEN
      • Memory:
      • RGB E-PEEN
      • Storage:
      • Not in any order
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVEN BIGGER E-PEEN
      • PSU:
      • OVERSIZED
      • Case:
      • UNDERSIZED
      • Operating System:
      • DOS 6.22
      • Monitor(s):
      • NOT USUALLY ON....WHEN I POST
      • Internet:
      • FUNCTIONAL

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    Would make sense as the 2xxx series APU's were released with Zen+ before the full Zen+ release IIRC?
    Also I have some concerns about 7NM too(think about AMD and the fact it is dual sourcing) - I do think it is quite possible AMD might be able to beat Intel to a proper rollout of parts on 7NM/10NM but clockspeeds might be the issue at least initially.

    On mobile clockspeeds are a lesser issue,and also Intel has technically "beaten" AMD in the core count there as they have 6C and soon to be 8C APUs. Moving to 7NM allows AMD to add more cores,whilst keeping chip size and power consumption in check. Also the APUs can act as a 7NM CPU test.


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

  11. #1387
    Oh Crumbs.... Biscuit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    N. Yorkshire
    Posts
    11,193
    Thanks
    1,392
    Thanked
    1,091 times in 833 posts
    • Biscuit's system
      • Motherboard:
      • MSI B450M Mortar
      • CPU:
      • AMD 2700X (Be Quiet! Dark Rock 3)
      • Memory:
      • 16GB Patriot Viper 2 @ 3466MHz
      • Storage:
      • 500GB WD Black
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Sapphire R9 290X Vapor-X
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic Focus Gold 750W
      • Case:
      • Lian Li PC-V359
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 x64
      • Internet:
      • BT Infinity 80/20

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Also I have some concerns about 7NM too(think about AMD and the fact it is dual sourcing) - I do think it is quite possible AMD might be able to beat Intel to a proper rollout of parts on 7NM/10NM but clockspeeds might be the issue at least initially.

    On mobile clockspeeds are a lesser issue,and also Intel has technically "beaten" AMD in the core count there as they have 6C and soon to be 8C APUs. Moving to 7NM allows AMD to add more cores,whilst keeping chip size and power consumption in check. Also the APUs can act as a 7NM CPU test.
    I wonder if the 2018 late release is when we will find out how many cores are in the new CCX then...

  12. #1388
    HEXUS.staff MLyons's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    459
    Thanks
    288
    Thanked
    132 times in 85 posts
    • MLyons's system
      • Motherboard:
      • ASUS PRIME X470-PRO
      • CPU:
      • 2700x
      • Memory:
      • 16GB DDR4 Corsair RGB
      • Storage:
      • 500GB MX500 500GB HDD 2TB SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVGA SC2 1080Ti
      • PSU:
      • Corsair tx650
      • Case:
      • Corsair Air 540
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 2 Asus 1080p

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    I wonder if the 2018 late release is when we will find out how many cores are in the new CCX then...
    Unlikely.
    Half dev, Half doge. Some say DevDoge

    Feel free to message me if you find any bugs or have any suggestions.
    If you need me urgently, PM me
    If something is/was broke it was probably me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  13. #1389
    Oh Crumbs.... Biscuit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    N. Yorkshire
    Posts
    11,193
    Thanks
    1,392
    Thanked
    1,091 times in 833 posts
    • Biscuit's system
      • Motherboard:
      • MSI B450M Mortar
      • CPU:
      • AMD 2700X (Be Quiet! Dark Rock 3)
      • Memory:
      • 16GB Patriot Viper 2 @ 3466MHz
      • Storage:
      • 500GB WD Black
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Sapphire R9 290X Vapor-X
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic Focus Gold 750W
      • Case:
      • Lian Li PC-V359
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 x64
      • Internet:
      • BT Infinity 80/20

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by MLyons View Post
    Unlikely.
    But otherwise, that would mean they're running out 2 x CCX version on 7nm, which would go against their approach so far of having basically one universal scalable design?

  14. #1390
    HEXUS.staff MLyons's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    459
    Thanks
    288
    Thanked
    132 times in 85 posts
    • MLyons's system
      • Motherboard:
      • ASUS PRIME X470-PRO
      • CPU:
      • 2700x
      • Memory:
      • 16GB DDR4 Corsair RGB
      • Storage:
      • 500GB MX500 500GB HDD 2TB SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVGA SC2 1080Ti
      • PSU:
      • Corsair tx650
      • Case:
      • Corsair Air 540
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 2 Asus 1080p

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    But otherwise, that would mean they're running out 2 x CCX version on 7nm, which would go against their approach so far of having basically one universal scalable design?
    The 2018 release IIRC is 12nm. Zen 2 is 2019 some time. That;s when we'll find out. Unless these new rumoured APUs are in fact 7nm. If they are then we'll find out.
    Half dev, Half doge. Some say DevDoge

    Feel free to message me if you find any bugs or have any suggestions.
    If you need me urgently, PM me
    If something is/was broke it was probably me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  15. #1391
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Gateshead
    Posts
    15,186
    Thanks
    1,227
    Thanked
    2,289 times in 1,872 posts
    • scaryjim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Dell Inspiron
      • CPU:
      • Core i5 8250U
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4GB DDR4 2666
      • Storage:
      • 128GB M.2 SSD + 1TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon R5 230
      • PSU:
      • Battery/Dell brick
      • Case:
      • Dell Inspiron 5570
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 15" 1080p laptop panel

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    But otherwise, that would mean they're running out 2 x CCX version on 7nm, which would go against their approach so far of having basically one universal scalable design?
    They could run out a 2x CCX APU and a 4x CCX main die, which could then be scaled up to a 64 core 4 die MCM.

    I'd personally find it really odd if the 4 core CCX only lasted one (and a half?) generation before they redefined the CCX again - particularly when the whole point of the CCX is that it's modular. Perhaps they'll decide that 4 cores is actually enough for an APU. After all, the current APUs aren't priced or specced to compete with i7s, or even i5s really. We might see a 1 CCX APU with more shaders, and maybe a 3 CCX CPU for up to 12 cores. 4C/8T APUs are still going to compare favourably to the i3s anyway (which are currently, and likely to remain, 4C/4T).

    And then again maybe they'll just concentrate on using the transistor budget to improve clockspeeds, like they did with Vega 64. If they can pull a similar use of transistor count to bump the clock speeds of Zen 2 they won't need to increase core counts, because they won't be compromising on single-threaded performance anymore....

  16. #1392
    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    30,073
    Thanks
    3,408
    Thanked
    4,729 times in 3,651 posts
    • CAT-THE-FIFTH's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Less E-PEEN
      • CPU:
      • Massive E-PEEN
      • Memory:
      • RGB E-PEEN
      • Storage:
      • Not in any order
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVEN BIGGER E-PEEN
      • PSU:
      • OVERSIZED
      • Case:
      • UNDERSIZED
      • Operating System:
      • DOS 6.22
      • Monitor(s):
      • NOT USUALLY ON....WHEN I POST
      • Internet:
      • FUNCTIONAL

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    AMD PR has commented,Epyc and Vega are only going to be released this year on 7NM. Apparently AMD is releasing a new super efficient H series CPU.

    They appear to have less cache,but the memory support is interesting.

    "AMD Reference Platform, “Raven Ridge 2018” AMD Ryzen™ 7 2800H, 2x8GB DDR4-3200, Samsung VLV2560 SSD
    Windows 10 x64 16299.64, Graphics Driver: 23.20.768.0, 1920×1080"

    https://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF...A7-3217EEP.pdf


    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    They could run out a 2x CCX APU and a 4x CCX main die, which could then be scaled up to a 64 core 4 die MCM.

    I'd personally find it really odd if the 4 core CCX only lasted one (and a half?) generation before they redefined the CCX again - particularly when the whole point of the CCX is that it's modular. Perhaps they'll decide that 4 cores is actually enough for an APU. After all, the current APUs aren't priced or specced to compete with i7s, or even i5s really. We might see a 1 CCX APU with more shaders, and maybe a 3 CCX CPU for up to 12 cores. 4C/8T APUs are still going to compare favourably to the i3s anyway (which are currently, and likely to remain, 4C/4T).

    And then again maybe they'll just concentrate on using the transistor budget to improve clockspeeds, like they did with Vega 64. If they can pull a similar use of transistor count to bump the clock speeds of Zen 2 they won't need to increase core counts, because they won't be compromising on single-threaded performance anymore....
    Having said that - look at the AT article on the 2990WX and look how much of the power budget Infinity Fabric is taking up. Now I suspected why they had it in a 1:2 ratio with memory frequency was down to power,but its surprising how much Infinity Fabric takes up.

    I also looked at the TH article on Ryzen+ and cache latencies are as good as Intel now - so it is basically latency due to the inter-CCX communication and system memory.

    So it could be quite possible a lot of improvements are to the Inifinity Fabric instead,instead of pure clockspeed,especially if they end up adding more cores.

    Now this might have an impact on games,since if they can get latencies down,that would probably help a lot with games.

    Plus this is GlobalFoundries we are talking about,there claims of 5GHZ clockspeeds need to be taken with a grain of salt,until proof is shown!!
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 22-08-2018 at 02:18 PM.


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 3 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 3 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •