payrise advice

[j.o.s.h.1408]

I was stating the fact that unless you have met someone then its a bit silly to take it like gospel, i have learnt this.

true but i am taking all the advice from here and generalizing what i should do. what i will do is wait maybe 9-10 months into the job, analyze how well i have done and try to persuade them to increase my salary to 22k at least then ask again in another 10 months for maybe 25-26k.

im not expecting to earn 30k plus alrrady and i can live with 17k for maybe a year max but after i deserve at least the average sal in london which is 22k. i suspect that this company is not a user company has one of the new guys earns 23k has a php developer

[Howard]

I was stating the fact that unless you have met someone then its a bit silly to take it like gospel, i have learnt this.

Welcome to the internet.

[arbitor]

true but i am taking all the advice from here and generalizing what i should do. what i will do is wait maybe 9-10 months into the job, analyze how well i have done and try to persuade them to increase my salary to 22k at least then ask again in another 10 months for maybe 25-26k.

im not expecting to earn 30k plus alrrady and i can live with 17k for maybe a year max but after i deserve at least the average sal in london which is 22k. i suspect that this company is not a user company has one of the new guys earns 23k has a php developer

You do deserve it mate, you went to uni did the "done" thing these days and should be earning more than me who didnt do it and is 2/3 three years younger.

sounds like a plan you have there, just work hard get noticed

[j.o.s.h.1408]

You do deserve it mate, you went to uni did the "done" thing these days and should be earning more than me who didnt do it and is 2/3 three years younger.

sounds like a plan you have there, just work hard get noticed

yup and at least i have a starting point for my career. i rather be earning 17k doing what i loved best and studied for then stacking shelves for more

[arbitor]

Good on ya.

Im finaly doing what i wanted to do and i love it so far, and make a london basic

[stroberaver]

But ... and it's a large 'but' .... not all companies treat their staff well. It is not unknown for companies to take on bright people, even graduates, for "grunt" work, knowing full well that after a year or so, when promises don't get fulfilled, they'll be dissatisfied and wanting more. This type of company may well try to string you out for as long as possible, because meantime, you're cheap labour. And, when you refuse to put up with it any longer and leave, they simply look for fresh cheap labour.

I can empathise with that, and agree with all the other advice you've given! I'm currently in that kind of situation - not had a pay rise in two years (company had to make redundancies earlier this year), and I know fine well that if I left, they'd never manage to hire someone of my capability on my salary. The difficult thing is finding something (i.e. different job) to progress to when your current employer doesn't give you any training or certifiable (and transferable) skills.

Asking for a £5k pay rise after only a few months is bordering on lunacy, imo. Besides, if it's something you love, the money isn't so important. Only if you don't enjoy your occupation does the amount you're paid become much more of an issue.

[Saracen]

I can empathise with that, and agree with all the other advice you've given! I'm currently in that kind of situation - not had a pay rise in two years (company had to make redundancies earlier this year), and I know fine well that if I left, they'd never manage to hire someone of my capability on my salary. The difficult thing is finding something (i.e. different job) to progress to when your current employer doesn't give you any training or certifiable (and transferable) skills.

I sympathise, but that sounds like it might not be quite what I meant.

If your employer "had" to make redundancies, then it sounds like there's commercial troubles. That may just be that a contract finished, or that expected growth or new contracts didn't happen, or it may be that the company is simply not run very well and that costs are out of hand.

But it can be a very tough commercial world out there, and customers are sometimes (read 'often') able to beat margins down quite hard because if your company doesn't take the work at £x,000 someone else will. It doesn't, of course, help you when you don't get a pay rise but the "user" company type I was talking about isn't paying low rates because it has to (and it may well be quite profitable), but it's exploiting cheap "apprentice" labour with no intention of providing career development, training or long-term prospects. In other words, a cynical exploitation, usually of the young and, without wishing to offend anyone, those that are a bit naive, business-wise.

Your company sounds, from what you've said, as if it may just be facing hard times, not cynical exploiting new graduates. The "user" may not be commonplace, but they certainly are out there .... and have been for many years. I first encountered (indirectly) an example of that strategy in the '60s.

[stroberaver]

That may just be that a contract finished, or that expected growth or new contracts didn't happen, or it may be that the company is simply not run very well and that costs are out of hand.

Um, all of the above, really.

I understand what you're saying - in my case the company is normally profitable (not making a mint but otherwise doing fine - the last year has been an exception with the loss of two major contracts), but isn't interested in paying people competitive salaries. Whether it's a conscious business decision or just sheer bloody mindedness, I have no idea.

However I wasn't fishing for sympathy though - I just mentioned my situation as a contrast to the OP's. To me, whining about money after a couple of months and comparing your earnings to everyone else doesn't sound like a graduate - although maybe things are different and much more materialistic in the city of london (I'm oop north, y'see - haven't worked in London myself although i can imagine just how obsessed & ruthless some city workers can be in pursuit of ever more money). For the OP it seems like a very shallow and short-term view to take of things, which I think is sorta where you were coming from in the first place.

[Saracen]

....., but isn't interested in paying people competitive salaries. Whether it's a conscious business decision or just sheer bloody mindedness, I have no idea.

I guess that's at the heart of what I was talking about. If they can't afford to pay competitive salaries, it's one thing. If they could, but made a cold decision to use people by making promises they had no intention, right from the get-go, of honouring, it's very different. The spot it puts the employee in (i.e. underpaid) may be the same, but the business ethos is very different.

[j.o.s.h.1408]

well in london you practily pay more for lots of things ie travel, rent, food, petrol etc... 17k maybe fine oustide london but that amount can barely pay the bills in london.

Their are times where i cant even afford to treat myself with a xbox 360 game! the average rent people pay here in london is around 600. now thats more than half of someone's salary is gone for someone earning 17k. add the cost of food, clothes, and travel and your almost left with nothing. 17k-22k maybe a big increase on paper but in reality it realy aint.

[Zak33]

also yes ur right, expereinced secretarys get like 28k for just sitting at desk and answering calls

to fully defend secretarial skills.

a good secretary is worth a million quid if he/she is worth a million quid.

some of the best companies ive ever dealt with are good BECAUSE the boss has a good secretary...not cos the boss was any good!

[malfunction]

I'm not sure what the current job market is like but for reference my first job after uni paid 16K. By the time I moved on (2 years later) I was on 22K - which happened in several steps:

1) I got a ~ 2K payrise after 6 months but then that also involved a promotion from "trainee programmer" to "programmer"

2) I got a yearly (performance based) payrise of ~ 3 or 4%

3) The next payrise was also based around a promotion from "developer" (programmer renamed) to "senior developer"

4) I got a yearly (performance based) payrise of ~ 3 or 4%

However all of this was with a big company with a fairly well trodden career path - with clearly defined job roles published and regular reviews of progress and I was (to be immodest for a moment) better at the job than many of my peers. In a smaller company you'll find it (in my experience) harder to progress. I would say that rather than asking for more money ask about progression within the company longer term, how they think you are fitting in and what you can improve on or learn to help the company out and improve your prospects. Doing your job well always helps but also think about doing something that no-one else is / that other people don't want to do - for example after a year in my first job I volunteered to act as a mentor to the next graduate intake (which I enjoyed despite the fact that others avoided it like the plague). In another later job I set up coding standards and held design and code reviews across projects (sometimes I was the one doing the reviewing, sometimes the one being reviewed).

Two final points:

1) As far as I'm aware, games programming always pays less than an equivalent job in other sectors such as finance and telecoms (even proper games programming, unless your name is Carmack).

2) Take it from someone that has somewhat successfully chased money the past few years - you can be very unhappy even in a (relatively) very well paid job (I've switched from development to pure consultancy... it's not all bad but I'm not sure the extra cash is worth the extra hassle)

[j.o.s.h.1408]

i dont realy want to stay in the game sector. i would love to move into the more financial side of things and develope my skils their has that sector has a fantastic career path to follow. ok say if you where recruiting new people from your company, will a junior java developer with 1-2 years experience makng games have a good chance of being succesul landing a position their or would a person have to have financial background etc?

[ikonia]

most financial jobs require financial experience.

Most people gain financial experience by taking the bottom end of the job market.

Its a chicken and an egg situation.

Keep in mind also that java is also not massive in the financial industry (it is used just not core)

[bigblue]

My first job was terribly paid, but I loved it. I stayed for a fair while as I figured that as I was at work five days a week, and only off for two, it made sense to be happy in the bigger portion of my life.

I then took another job for the enjoyment, rather than the money, and stayed in it for a while too. Shortly after, as the first guy I'd worked for admired my passion, he hired me back for better money. After a while, the second employer tempted me back to them again, for more money still. End result, I was still in a job I loved but with more money.

All I'm trying to say (in a pretty poorly explained way...) is that there's a lot to be said for having a job you enjoy. If you're with a half way decent employer, and you're good, the money should follow.

If you're not with a half decent employer, and you're good at what you do, what are you debating ? The only risk is if you think you're good, but you're not as good as you think, you're in trouble.

Overall though, pay isn't "fair". You'd drive yourself mad if you constantly compared salaries as there's too many variables. It's up to the individual to decide what they're happy with. My missus is a midwife, with a ton of qualifications, 8 years studying in various subjects, 10 years experience, yet only gets paid per annum what a typical 20 year old first division footballer, without two brain cells to rub together, makes in a fortnight. But they're both fair salaries as their employer feels that's what they're worth, and can get a replacement for.

[arbitor]

17k to 22k is an extra 500 quid in your pocket after tax, and thats a lot.

News flash you dont need to live in pimlico to work in london, theres loads of places that are cheap enough on the tueb and very nice, Wimbledon being one of them..