as the bible says
evolution
dont get me wrong i'll discuss it, but the "In Christ there is love, and the closer you move towards love, the further you move away from fear" type comments, i class as preaching.
By all means tell me about ur religion, i'll be interested, but dont suggest what i should and shouldnt do, and dont tell me i'll go to hell for not believe what you believe.
as this has turned into a religion argument i'm gonna wander in and put the cat amongst the pigeons. Ever seen a foreign film where the subtitles make feck all sense? thats one language being translated straight into another. Now the amount of years the bibles been around it must've been translated a fair few more times than that, for all we know it could have started out as an erotic story about a carpenter and a lonely princess.
But even if it does read correctly and its meaning has stayed true it has been created for only one reason, out of our fear of the unknown. as humans we fear what we can't control and do not understand. as you grow up you want to know things like how we should treat other people (thats answered by the commandmants), where did we come from? (genisis) and what happens when we die is explained damn near all the way through.
Personally i don't believe a word of it, as far as i'm concerned once i'm dead i'm dead i cease to be and i'm gonna do my best to have all the fun i can before that happens wether that book classes it as a sin or not
I think we're agreed on that one then!Originally Posted by Elmo
Just bear with us annoying christians, we're only trying to do what we think is right!
*Stops preaching, (at least for the moment)
Last edited by Alex; 19-05-2004 at 11:28 PM. Reason: Edited to include quote, for clarity's sake.
If god created the earth, who created god?
No-one. Time started existing at the big bang. God just exists, and not within the parameters of time.
Meant to say - I've been reading Dune and not just the one, but all 6 books of Dune:
Dune
Dune Messiah
The Children of Dune
God Emperor of Dune
The Heretics of Dune
Chapter House Dune
As you can probably guess, they center on religion a far bit and also evolution , well worth a read.
Galant and Elmo you havent offended, religion tends to be about what people personal believe and as such can be a difficult subject to talk about without people feeling that it's intruding personaly, it's also a difficult subject becuase putting it into words without putting it from your own perspective can be difficult, please don't stop posting.
Ok Galant mate, a few points.
Firstly, on the whole Santa \ God thing. You say they are not the same thing and a belief in one is not the same as a belief in the other, but I would argue that they are.
They are both (in my opinion of course) the belief in a fictional being, primarily aimed at making a mundane 'thing' a much more magical and meaningful 'thing'.
A child doesn't want to think that on Christmas day, Uncle Keith dresses up in a red coat, after a few too many pints of Stella, and throws the Playstation under the fake tree.
He \ She wants to believe that Santa, a big fat geezer, at no risk from conorary heart disease, despite being morbidly obese for all of his adult life, flies from Lapland, on the back of a magic Reindeer, probably saying 'Yo Ho Ho', and puts the Playstation under the tree, because they have been a good boy, or in the case of the girl - girl.
It’s about adding a bit of sparkle to a young child’s life. Of course, they have to grow up, and realise that whole Uncle Keith \ 9 Pints of Stella reality, and whilst this isn't better than the Santa idea, it is the cold, hard fact.
Now we have God, the creator, the number one, the main man, the boss man, the gaffer, the man upstairs, the big cheese, the person in the big leather chair who gets choccy biscuits whilst everyone else has Rich Tea, the geezer of all geezers’, the architect, the Supreme Being, if you will - the daddy.
If we believe in this supernatural bloke, we don't die, and rot in a hole; oh no! Just like the magic of Santa we get to go to heaven, and play a harp, or at least, some stringed instrument based roughly on the standard harp design. (I'm not up on all these new fangled things)
Smacks a bit of the child wanting to believe in Santa really, doesn't it? A more magical outcome, that only needs you to believe in it, to be true. Of course, it's all a load of tosh (seeing as this is a thread to put forward our views, I assume I can say that without fear of upsetting anyone), but that's not the point.
The Bible, to be honest, is full of nonsense fairy tales, that make the idea of Santa look positively sensible. Talking snakes, virgin births, people rising from the dead, and other such happenings... erm, happen.
Now, bottom line; if I am asked to believe in all of that, word for word, right down to the talking snake, and the virgin birth, and some all powerful creator, I'm going to need something more than 'its the truth, because it says so in this book'.
Faith, to me, is a lot closer to ignorance that a lot of people would admit. 'I have faith' can be interpreted as 'I am totally ignorant of the situation and have not even a shred of proof or even a reason to believe that this account is true - but I believe it is anyway'.
Now (and forgive me if I'm rambling) were the whole Christian, or religious area, as a whole, one of peace, love and happy things, I'd probably have more time for it. Alas, as long as the Muslims and the Hindu's are killing each other in India, and paedophile Priests (Gods representatives on Earth, I think I am right in saying) are sexually abusing and rapeing children, as well as the other countless atrocities committed in the name of religion, I've no time for it at all.
I don't believe these stories without some sort of proof that they are fact (meaning, for instance, that I obviously acknowledge the existence of Jesus Christ, but do not believe that he was the son of God, or anything more than a bloke who stood on an orange box and told people to stop doing that, and start doing that), and I don't want to associate myself with modern religion, whilst it is, quite frankly, in the utter state that it is now.
Second point – you would argue, I assume, as a Christian, than Jesus died for our sins. I however, would argue that Jesus died because he was nailed to a large piece of wood, and left to die.
I can prove beyond medical dispute, that crucifixion is fatal, and therefore, if Jesus was or was not the son of God, he would have died anyway. If you cannot prove, in any way, shape or form, that Jesus died for our sins (beyond saying ‘it says he did in this book'), why do you personally believe the version of events that can’t be proven, over the version of events that can be proven?
I can prove, beyond medical dispute, that once dead and buried, a person can not return to life, I can prove beyond medical dispute a ‘virgin birth’, in the way it is described in the bible, could not happen.
You can not prove that any of these things are possible, I can prove that they are not. Given this fact, why believe in the fantastical version of events, offered to you only in a single book, with no proof that these frankly impossible happenings did indeed take place?
I personally, would need more, if I am being asked to believe in these amazing, supernatural events.
Your comments please.
Last edited by Stewart; 20-05-2004 at 12:04 AM.
Bod I have read all of those books mate, very good stuff.
HEXUS FOLDING TEAM It's EASY
*claps*
well said vaul
Cheers Knoxxy.
I rambled on a bit, but I think the point is there, if you can be arsed to look for it.
Last edited by Stewart; 20-05-2004 at 12:03 AM.
The problem with christians is that they don't know what christianity is. It's become a set standard, kind of like how you act after being friends with someone for many years. They don't have their own point of views, they've followed everyone else's. Shame, it's a good religion really just with clouded views.
Some maybe, but not all. Very few of those I know well fit into that category.
Odd how the countless amount of christians i have met still seem to believe that jesus was born on the 25th of december. *shakes head*
lol! Really?
Without getting into all the nitty-gritty of the subjects you brought up, it appears Knox that you don't include the possibility that God could or wanted to speak to humanity?
If it's all false then fine, if it's not, then is it not possible that the messages are true and that God did speak to humanity?
If you start from the position that God does not or can not exist, and that He can't or wont speak, then there's almost no point in bringing it up.
No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were displaced and terribly inconvenienced.
but thats what confuses me, and why i prefer to just politely nod and let it go because where did everything that caused the big bang come from, and if we all came from a creator, then who/what created that creator, and who created that, and so on and so on until my ears bleed.
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