what do you believe

[turkster]

No-one. Time started existing at the big bang. God just exists, and not within the parameters of time.

Time didnt necessarily start with the big bang. The big bang is just as far back as it is possible for us to plot at the moment. Doesnt mean there was no time or matter before it.

I can imagine how God may not be effected by time but does he just EXIST. Does He still exist if no one has faith in him. Or if no one believes in Him?

If God exists outside of time, place and matter as you seem to suggest then how is it possible for him to interact with us?

It is a nice easy explanation of how God exists but it is too easy. Religious people seem to accept God at face value without contemplating how or why he exists. To be religious the first thing you have to do is believe in God. But once thats over no one thinks to ask the hows and the wherefores.

I'am not very serious about religion but the first thing i'd think about if I was would be how and why God exists.

[subucni]

I'am not very serious about religion but the first thing i'd think about if I was would be how and why God exists.

amen

[Galant]

Okay, let's have a go at surmounting the insurmountable.

Firstly, on the whole Santa \ God thing... They are both (in my opinion of course) the belief in a fictional being, primarily aimed at making a mundane 'thing' a much more magical and meaningful 'thing'.

Smacks a bit of the child wanting to believe in Santa really, doesn't it? A more magical outcome, that only needs you to believe in it, to be true. Of course, it's all a load of tosh (seeing as this is a thread to put forward our views, I assume I can say that without fear of upsetting anyone), but that's not the point.

Santa Vs. God

It is entirely proveable that Santa does not exist. All the lore tied up with him is false. It is not entirely proveable that God is false nor is all that is tied up with Him false.

Santa is a children's dream. Yet many great thinkers have acknowledged God's existence. The questions regarding God and His existence are a far more complex and challenging subject than the story of a man who makes and gives toys.

Santa is culturally related and a modern invention, for fun. The general belief in God and/or the supernatural is something as old as humanity can be recorded, and is far more serious a subject.

Vaul, it seems that your arguments are based upon the incorrect premise that since two things have something in common, then they are the same. (Both don't exist - in your thinking - both are nice to believe, both are the domain of the mentally and/or emotionally deprived).

When analysing the question of a things existence you cannot begin with the presupposition that it does not exist. The reverse is true.

Santa might be nice to believe, but belief in God is not necessarily so. As I've said in other posts, belief in/commitment to Christianity is often a difficult and unpleasant experience. Yes the promise is heaven - nice thing - but the truth is that such belief in God has far deeper and wider reaching consequences than belief in Santa - sometimes to the point of torture and giving your life. That's not a 'nice' thing to believe in, nor does mental/emotional weakness stand up as an argument under such testing.

The Bible, to be honest, is full of nonsense fairy tales... Talking snakes, virgin births, people rising from the dead, and other such happenings... erm, happen.

Now, bottom line; if I am asked to believe in all of that, word for word, right down to the talking snake, and the virgin birth, and some all powerful creator, I'm going to need something more than 'its the truth, because it says so in this book'.

Comparisons between the Bible and other lore and mythology have been made and studies undertaken, if you care to look them up, you'll find they don't match. That's an aside though.

Firstly, Christianity doesn't argue that the miracles recorded within the Bible are 'normal'. They're not. They're miracles. They're something that happens or that can happen when God, who is supernatural, exercises His power on earth, which is natural. If God did create the Earth then is it so hard to believe that He can make such things happen?

Just because you can prove such things do not under normal (natural) circumstances happen, it does not mean that when under abnormal (supernatural) influences they cannot. Your testing can't extend that far. The scientist must acknowledge the possibility along with the insufficiency of his/her methods to measure such things.

As for 'word for word' belief. A question, when was the last time you read poetry? Did you believe it? Was it true?

I think you'd tell me that those are stupid questions. Poetry isn't supposed to be read in the same way as a history book, or law book, or an eye-witness account. I'm sure you'd acknowledge that it is common sense to read different genres of material in different ways.

The same is true with the Bible. It is made up of many different books, written in different genres. Some are law books, some historical accounts, other are reports, others still are letters, and then poetry. Reading the Bible isn't a matter of flicking through and just picking out the odd verse and reading it as you like. Things must be taken in context with concern given to how the book was written. Genesis (your talking snake) is a tricky book to read because it could be one of two genres - it could be an example of an ancient practise of telling stories to teach principles (other more modern examples, though slightly different, might be Aesops Fables, Jesus' parables, or metaphorical tales). Alternatively, it could be a historical account. Opinions differ. Making your mind up requires some thought.

Faith, to me, is a lot closer to ignorance that a lot of people would admit. 'I have faith' can be interpreted as 'I am totally ignorant of the situation and have not even a shred of proof or even a reason to believe that this account is true - but I believe it is anyway'.

That's not the best description of faith.

Some people do do that. I acknowledge that. In doing so they could be wrong or they could be right - it's simply not the best way to go about making decisions.

Faith is faith 'in something' or based 'on something'. If you're in a relationship, how do you know the other person loves you? You can't 'see' their love, you can't touch it. It's beyond the five senses and the tests of science. You have to go off what they say, how they act and what you've learned generally. You come to 'know' that they love you. Then, based upon that you can make decisions trusting that you know that they'll like those decisons or how they'll respond to them.

Faith in God isn't 'blind' it's based upon other learned truths, by experience, and then making decisions because even though you can't prove something, and you have no 'actual' guarantee, you 'know' it to be true.

Alas, as long as the Muslims and the Hindu's are killing each other in India, and paedophile Priests (Gods representatives on Earth, I think I am right in saying) are sexually abusing and rapeing children, as well as the other countless atrocities committed in the name of religion, I've no time for it at all.

This would be known as the 'problem of evil'. How can an all-powerful and all-loving God exist when we have a world full of so much pain?

Answering that question would take more space and time than I have here, and probably even more faculties than I possess, yet I believe it possible that such a God can exist with such a world.

A few reasons are, that we are given free-will - people act how they please. If God were to intervene every time something was going wrong the world wouldn't make sense. Moreover, God might as well have created will-less beings who did everything as pre-programmed. Relationships, and goodness only have value when there is freedom. My choice for good doesn't mean much if it's the only option. In order to have the greatest good possible, there must also be the possibility for the opposite. Also, if I'm forced to 'love' someone, then there is no love in it.

Secondly - perspective - I've mentioned this before. Many times, the 'worst' experiences we go through don't seem so bad when we're through them. Time does heal, and things later, put into perspective can seem much smaller than when they are all you can see. Now, I am in no way trying to diminish the awful pain and experiences that many face on this earth. I am however trying to maximise the potential of absolute wonder and peace and restitution available on 'the other side'.

There are other points but I'll leave it there. It is a hard argument, and one that must be faced. One question I might ask of some of it's proponents though is whether you ask because you really care about the suffering of others, or just because it's a convenient argument?

I don't want to associate myself with modern religion, whilst it is, quite frankly, in the utter state that it is now.

There are a lot of problems with religion today. I have no desire or compulsion to defend all religions, I only believe one is true. Yet Christianity has brought massive good to this world. Much of western values and belief is founded upon Judeo-Christian teaching. The aid - health, education, relief, learning and knowledge that have been brought to countries and people across the globe by missionaries are also massive. Don't ignore the great good done, and the love shown by many, many Christians.

Second point – you would argue, I assume, as a Christian, than Jesus died for our sins. I however, would argue that Jesus died because he was nailed to a large piece of wood, and left to die.

Yup that would be about right as far as why He physically died. The question as to why He died isn't physical, it's motive. The point is that He didn't have to die or suffer as He did, He allowed Himself to go through it all at the hands of others because of love.

The really big question about the death of Jesus, isn't that He died because He was beaten up and crucified, it is that He was resurrected. I know resurrections aren't the norm. As I've said above - miracles aren't supposed to be. Again, if God created life, bodies, and everything else, then what's so hard about believing He can bring back the dead? What are life and death to the One who created them?

No, the real question to ponder over - is where is the body? You acknowledge He was a man who lived and died. Now think about where His body is if He's still dead.

The was plenty of reason for various groups and individuals to produce the body and prove Jesus was dead (those who killed Him, those who might want to prevent an uprising for example), yet they didn't/couldn't. Did the disciples steal the body then, to prevent such from happening? If so, you then have a bunch of individuals who spent the rest of their lives going through suffering and dying really nasty deaths, all for something they knew wasn't true and had no real reason to maintain in the face of such opposition. There are also the various recorded witness account to explain away. There are some really good books on this one, and I recommend that the most cynical and studious minds take a look at the issue - for intellectual integrity and honesty if nothing else.

[turkster]

Faith, to me, is a lot closer to ignorance that a lot of people would admit. 'I have faith' can be interpreted as 'I am totally ignorant of the situation and have not even a shred of proof or even a reason to believe that this account is true - but I believe it is anyway'.

I would agree with you here. As far as I can see many Christians (probably true of other religions too) make no effort to understand God or even Christian teachings but yet they say they believe. What exactly?!!! Then that very believe structure is used as shield to justify many actions of rather dubious moral nature. Some of which you mentioned.

I must say here that I am not anti religious and I believe that certain aspects religion can be very GOOD. In fact I am studying a monastery for my theses and they are very holy and morally sound.

Second point – you would argue, I assume, as a Christian, than Jesus died for our sins. I however, would argue that Jesus died because he was nailed to a large piece of wood, and left to die.

I can prove beyond medical dispute, that crucifixion is fatal, and therefore, if Jesus was or was not the son of God, he would have died anyway. If you cannot prove, in any way, shape or form, that Jesus died for our sins (beyond saying ‘it says he did in this book'), why do you personally believe the version of events that can’t be proven, over the version of events that can be proven?

I can prove, beyond medical dispute, that once dead and buried, a person can not return to life, I can prove beyond medical dispute a ‘virgin birth’, in the way it is described in the bible, could not happen.

You can not prove that any of these things are possible, I can prove that they are not. Given this fact, why believe in the fantastical version of events, offered to you only in a single book, with no proof that these frankly impossible happenings did indeed take place?

I personally, would need more, if I am being asked to believe in these amazing, supernatural events.

You can prove all these things using modern medical and scientific theory as your proof but in fact you are just saying that if it is false then we cannot explain it.

There is absolutely no reason to imagine that we may not at some stage discover how to reanimate people or do other such things.
I agree it is strange to believe a version of events that seems unlikely but one cannot dismiss them out of hand.

Ab 1385 seems to think that God exists outside of time so to the majority of his flock the story of Jesus may be perfectly provable. (Get your head around that )



Ah dammit I cant keep up with this thread i'm going to bed.

[Galant]

Think about it in terms of physics.

Physics and physical laws - such as "something cannot come from nothing" - relate to the 'physical'. We can then go about measuring such things and explaining them.

God however isn't physical, He's spiritual. The laws which relate to the physical don't apply there, it's something different entirely. Therefore, a spiritual being is not necessarily bound by the physical laws which we are all so familiar with.

Another way to put it is physical/spiritual = natural/supernatural.


You could made even argue that logically speaking, the existence of a physcial universe where causation rules, dictates the need for a non-physical beginner who is the start for the physical, causal chain.

As for your questions Turk, there is no law which states that because the physical can't affect the spiritual then the spiritual can't affect the physical. In fact, if the spiritual created the physical, then surely it can interact with it, according to the way the spiritual set it up?

Secondly, just because someone doesn't believe in something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Existence is not based upon belief.

Hope that helps.

[Devilbod]

This is heading to the how do you prove things exist? The old if a tree falls down does it make sound if no ones around...best not go there....

The Big Bang theory is really flawed, it’s the only explanation for the Universe and although it works and fits to some degree, it breaks a few fundamental laws of thermodynamics at the same time. The biggest flaw is what existed before the big bang, several theory involving dimensions, primeval atoms and single points but who knows. Recent developments show that there is a black hole in the middle of every galaxy; could these be the door way back to the original state of the universe? The recompression of atoms to a single point, the absolute distortion of time and the possibility of a collapse on dimensions, in which case is there a point when the amount of matter that is reabsorbed into a black whole becomes a Big Bang in another dimension created in a separate field of existence….

I mean look at gravity, what causes it? According to the accepted belief, gravity exists because when you place an object of mass in this universe it instantly moves in time, because you are moving through space. In short just by existing in space you are compelled to move through time this is gravity.
But that doesn’t explain why you can jump in the air especially when you consider that the amount of force that is required to keep us all on the ground, to get some idea imagine a ball with an ant on the side, spin the ball and the ant will fly off.
The rotational speed of the Earth at the equator is about 1,038 miles per hour so imagine spinning the ball with the ant on it at that speed…
At the poles of the earth it’s around 0 mph so how come if you jump at the equator you jump the same height at the poles.
The belief is that gravity exists in a different dimension to time and because of some sort of blending/bleeding of the dimensions we don’t feel it’s full effects because time has to be present in both because you can’t have acceleration with out it.

Science is great isn’t it? It’s really easy to doubt all that above because it’s based on guess work, theories and speculation. It all fits in a nice sort of way but it could all be bs because there is no way to really prove any of it. Religion on the other hand gives a person a point of reference that gives an answer to all of that, but can be just as unbelievable as Science.

It’s all about belief, what you believe whether its science or religion it doesn’t really matter because all it’s doing is giving you the answers to the questions, after all that is what being human is – asking questions, learning and experiencing.


And I think I’ve just become guilty of preaching a non-religious and a non-scientific belief and probably have offended someone somewhere (sorry ) so I’m off to bed

[Stewart]

Okay, let's have a go at surmounting the insurmountable.

Insurmountable? I fully admit that you are not, during the course of this discussion, gong to convince me of the existence of a supernatural being, nor convince me that Evolution, without the involvement of a God, is not the 'correct' theory to believe in, but apart from that, I've an open mind.

It is entirely proveable that Santa does not exist. All the lore tied up with him is false. It is not entirely proveable that God is false nor is all that is tied up with Him false.

Yes, but conversely, all it takes to genuinely believe in the existence of Santa is a willingness to believe in the fantastical, supernatural elements that are required for such an individual to exist. If you ignore all the problems associated with a single individual visiting every child in the world (well, at least all of those in countries with the Father Christmas tradition) and just say 'Well Santa and his Elves and his Reindeer are magical, so it could be true', you can believe in him, and be justified in that belief.

In a similar vein, in order to believe in God, you have to except that a lot of what you are now accepting as fact, is fantastical. Jesus can come back to life because he's the son of God, Mary can give birth to Jesus whilst a virgin, because she's the mother of Christ, Gavin the snake (Is the snake named? If so, I apologise, if not, I think 'Gavin' sits rather well) can talk, etc.

Yes, it seems obvious to us that Santa does not exist, but to a child, it is very real. Perhaps to you, the probability of all this supernatural stuff happening is very real, but to me, it all seems like a nice story, nothing more.

I'll give you an example of how I feel, towards people who are deeply religious, and take the Bible word for word.

Lets take a tribe of Indians in the Amazonian Rain Forrest. For the sake of this example, we shall call them thee Nuk-Nuk-A-Nuk tribe. Now, the Nuk-Nuk-A-Nuk tribe worship 'Zengor' Lord of the Sky, Trees and forest animals up to and including 14lbs in weight.

When a thunderstorm racks the Rain Forrest, the Nuk-Nuk-A-Nuk tribe are very scared. Oh big momma, they so scared. Why? Because Zengor is angry! They must have done something to upset him!

And how do they know he is angry? Well, the booming, almighty roar of the God as he vents his anger, and the destructive bolts of doom he throws down upon them, of course.

Now, I know and you know that the almighty roar is simply a thunder-clap, the sound that follows a flash of lightning and is caused by sudden expansion of the air in the path of the electrical discharge, and we also know that the bolts of doom are simply lightning bolts, which has an equally simple, and entirely scientifically defined definition.

So, what to the Nuk-Nuk-A-Nuk tribe is a supernatural happening, can be, if you just refuse to believe in all this fantastical stuff, and actually think about things, explained.

Now, sometimes, as I say, I think the deeply religious amongst us, can be placed into the same category as the Nuk-Nuk-A-Nuks. 'Jesus died for our sins!' they shout, when surely 'Jesus died because some blokes nailed him to a cross' would be slightly more likely?

You see, you have no reason to believe in the happenings of the Bible, and nor do I. You choose to believe in something that requires a lot of faith to believe in, because, in simple terms, it is so unbelievable. It requires you to believe in miracles, in people rising from the dead, in good old Gavin giving it 'Go on, have an apple, a nice big juicy apple', and various other stuff.

Its just not for me, and to be honest, I think you have to be rather easily pleased, if all you need to convince you of these amazing happenings, is the fact that its written in a book.

Santa is a children's dream. Yet many great thinkers have acknowledged God's existence.

The Nuk-Nuk-A-Nuk acknowledge Zengor's existence, yet, he doesn't exist. Well, they don't of course, because I made them up, but you get the point. This also touches slightly on another issue I have with religion, the 'I'm right, everyone else is wrong' approach.

Christians believe in God, they have a book telling them what happened back in the day, they worship Jesus as the son of God, and they are 100% right. Muslims however, have a slightly different take on the matter, and Hindu's worship different Gods completely, and are just as 100% correct, apparently, as you are.

Vishnu is not worshiped by Christians, as there is only one God. So, if there is only one God, then Vishnu, from your point of view, is just a nice story, but there is no being behind that story. Then we have Hindu Gods, Eqyptian Gods, and of course, Zengor, worshiped by the Nuk-Nuk-A-Nuks.

Everyone is convinced they are right, and everyone else is wrong. Everyone has their stories in their books, and everyone's version is correct. Perhaps if all religious people as a whole, worshiped the same being it would add a bit of much needed credibility to the cause, but what makes your one so special that I should worship him, and accept the version of events that describes his work as told to his chosen people?

Why is he more valid than Vishnu, or Jupiter, or Apollo, or Vesta, or Cupid, or Bacchus, or Plutus, or Siva, or Ganesha, or Lakshimi, or Saraswathi, or Brahama, or Abis, or Bes, or Maat, or Nepthyts, or Osiris, or Ka, or Selket, or Sobek, or, of course, Zengor.

It seems that Gods are ten a penny, I see no reason to believe the stories of one group, over the stories of another. They all rely on blind spiritual acts of faith, and nothing distinguishes them from the others, apart from, perhaps, the willingness to kill in the name of a particular chosen God.

Santa is culturally related and a modern invention, for fun. The general belief in God and/or the supernatural is something as old as humanity can be recorded, and is far more serious a subject.

Is living in fear of Ghosts and Goblins any more or less silly than living in fear of the Devil?

Firstly, Christianity doesn't argue that the miracles recorded within the Bible are 'normal'. They're not. They're miracles. They're something that happens or that can happen when God, who is supernatural, exercises His power on earth, which is natural. If God did create the Earth then is it so hard to believe that He can make such things happen?

Yes, but in simple terms, why do you believe this? You have no reason to, there is nothing pointing to the fact that these things actually happened, there is no proof, no evidence, no reason. Why do you believe in these bizarre, fantastical happenings, on the basis that a book you read told you they happened? Surely you should need more than that?

You believe in a miracle based on what? What has convinced you that these miracles took place?

As for 'word for word' belief. A question, when was the last time you read poetry? Did you believe it? Was it true?

I think you'd tell me that those are stupid questions. Poetry isn't supposed to be read in the same way as a history book, or law book, or an eye-witness account. I'm sure you'd acknowledge that it is common sense to read different genres of material in different ways.

As far as I am aware, you believe that the Bible is the word of God, and as such, is to be followed. Hence all the trouble caused over taking passages from the Bible and applying them to modern life. The bible says that 'man shall not lie with man'. This is the word of God and you are a Christian. Therefore, you have no qualms in admitting that you consider homosexual behaviour abnormal and an affront to God, as per his word in the Bible.

Yes?

Lets be honest mate, if you are prepared to believe in the miracles of the Bible, then you are more than prepared to make this judgement, based on Gods word.

The same is true with the Bible. It is made up of many different books, written in different genres. Some are law books, some historical accounts, other are reports, others still are letters, and then poetry. Reading the Bible isn't a matter of flicking through and just picking out the odd verse and reading it as you like. Things must be taken in context with concern given to how the book was written. Genesis (your talking snake) is a tricky book to read because it could be one of two genres - it could be an example of an ancient practise of telling stories to teach principles (other more modern examples, though slightly different, might be Aesops Fables, Jesus' parables, or metaphorical tales). Alternatively, it could be a historical account. Opinions differ. Making your mind up requires some thought.

Good point. So how do you know that the bit about the virgin birth is to be taken literally, or the bit about Jesus rising again, or the bit about man not lying with man? How do you know which bits are the word of God, and which simply nice stories to take a simple moral message from?

Lets be honest though, the story of our friend Gavin, the talking snake, is unlikely to be an historical account, as the two are not often paired.

Faith in God isn't 'blind'

With no proof, no evidence, no reason and no actual experience of these events, can it be anything other than blind?

One question I might ask of some of it's proponents though is whether you ask because you really care about the suffering of others, or just because it's a convenient argument?

To be honest, pointing out the hypocrisy of the situation was my main aim. God’s representatives, in the house of God, doing what? Sexually abusing and rapeing children.

God really does move in mysterious ways. Far too mysterious for me to worship him. (Or should I say 'it'?)

There are a lot of problems with religion today. I have no desire or compulsion to defend all religions, I only believe one is true.

As I torched on earlier, you have no reason to believe one is true, any more than the other. Christianity is not presented any better, nor any more plausible than other religions, nor can any of its miracles be proven to have occurred, or any of its revelations be considered any more accurate than other major, or even minor, religions.

Yup that would be about right as far as why He physically died. The question as to why He died isn't physical, it's motive. The point is that He didn't have to die or suffer as He did, He allowed Himself to go through it all at the hands of others because of love.

And you know this because? Because it says so in a book. Is that really enough for you?

No, the real question to ponder over - is where is the body? You acknowledge He was a man who lived and died. Now think about where His body is if He's still dead.

Hmm. I don't think you can make a convincing argument along the lines that Jesus is the son of God, because we cannot identify his skeleton. Billy the Kid, the wild west outlaw, was around a long time after Jesus, and his bones were washed away, and now, can never be recovered, although apparently, as there are living relatives, they can test for them, via DNA.

Lets be honest, not knowing where his remains are, or having them to hand does not prove he was the Son of God. It seems that rather than concentrating on the lack of evidence that Jesus was the son of God, you are asking me to provide proof that he wasn't!

Anyway, time for a rest. I'm sure there is more to be said tomorrow.

[SilentDeath]

Before I post, note that I didnt read all of the second and third pages.. so I may have missed something.

I am not an atheist - I refuse for the religeon I belive in to be named by the idiots that belive in such crap. So I am without religion - I dont need a make-belive story to justify my existance...

Galant can I ask why do you have to be so annoying, why do christians in general have to be so annoying, WHY DAMMIT!!!!
Even if I did have the same beliefs I would refuse to join christianty just out of protest.

There are many aspects of religion that I htink are getting very mixed up and twisted here so Im trying to add some structure to my post...

Religion in general
I have read some of the bible, but have not studied it, nor do I want to. I see it as a way/tool which people in power in the past, used to control the population. Many laws in the UK were infuenced heavly by religon - religon possibly being the creator of laws. Im not saying this is a bad thing though, however I think now is possibly a good time to accept the laws we have, and the common sense that the lucky few of us have got and to abandon religon. Quote from possible famous person (forgot which..) "knowledge is power" - As most people are happy to follow anything blindly, with no knowledge of what it means.
This is another point - christianity is based on the fact that people are stupid and need constant annoyingness in the form of preaching. It offers nothing but a few common-sence moral rules (which leaders imo are taking too far currently) and the option to follow them blidnly into the big hole they are creating.

Religon is closed minded. If it wasnt, then sexism, racism, and many other things would not have existed at nearly the scale they used to.

Galant the point you seem to be trying to make is that god doesnt exist, but f you belive he does, then it makes the story you want to belive more complete...

Creation - who said god created us first :E evolution would seem to be a logical path to have happened however the universe was created.
I belive there is a scientific theory to explain a lot more, but it has got to the point where nothing more can be proven in any way easly.

If you look in detail at how the body works, that can ALL be explained scientificly (this is not for debate here), that gives you the science of life, leaving just the physics behind it. Given enough time, I belive that nature could arrange the correct elements in a way to create simple life, and start the process of evolution.

Life is then obviosly something that came far after the beggining, So you still belive that god created the universe, all the planets, and the eventual nothingness? I dont.

Lastly, even if there was a god, nowhere in the bible does it describe god in any non-biased-im-a-christian/blind-follower-and-this-is-what-i-want-to-belive way. Everything written in the bible is VERY inaccurate of what acctually happened (some of this has been proved scientificly) and how can any one even start to know what god is like if it is anything like a person.

To sum up my post, which took a mere 15 mins to write (indicating the cba'ness of the author, and the fact that a true summing up would take years, or more) I think christianity is in no way true, possibly a rip off of another religion, with extra crap added to make it more appealing to the mass of people that cant be arsed to understand it (which accounts for 95% of christians, I may add...).
no more preaching please galant... we respect your beliefs but that repect soon disapears when we have to hear someone whining on about how good something is, when they clearly cba to justify it properly (possibly becuase it cant be justified?).

/me googles for wiccan religion, as it sounds interesting. (take note galant, when people are interested, they will search, when there not, it just gets annoying...)

no offence meant if any was implyed.. its hard to not offend when dealing with religion (esp those that in many ways resemble, or possibly created the idea of marketing).

What happens when you die? I hope nothing. Galant whats your definition of heaven? I cant think of any non-twisted ways to define it that dont invole whats all ready available to the living...

You said you only get into heaven, if you accept god. What if youve done everything morally right for your whole life, but dont not belive, are you then condemmened to hell? if so then that imo would be an evil act of god if such a thing exists.

Also it annoys me when christians refer to god as a person, or a male (sexist..?) If god is all powerfull and supernatural as is constantly preached, then how the hell do you know what bits its got?
All the religious descriptions of god refer to it as a person but with powers to sleep a lot, and create the world in 6 days, and also to throw the odd thunder bolt when bored...

[Grey M@a]

Short and sweet, Evolution due to the simple fact that the bible is most likely a collection of travellers stories. I personally don't believe in this Heaven and Hell nonsense, when you die you die, simple as, you've lived your life and thats that. Some may say its a grim view but think about it, when you are dead you won't know what happens to you either way. The way I see it its false faith, giving people something to believe in.

I don't honestly know why people get so carried away with religion, as it always seems to be a cause for problems, Northern Ireland for example, The Gaza strip, all fighting each other due to a religion, just because you are Catholic, Jewish, Christian, Hindu (insert the rest of the list here) doesn't mean you are no different to the person standing next to you so why use it as a catalyst or excuse if you will to cause suffering to those who don't follow suit. Personally, religion was a way to keep the peace many moons ago and to set basic laws to which most laws today are based upon (very basic I know but the fundamental methods are there)

We might of been put here for a reason but I don't buy into this whole Garden of Eden story and that we were made in so many day's. Evolution all the way I would say and natural occurances from mother nature in order to fizzle out species that are not needed.

[Paul Adams]

Cutting to the chase, evolution.

Yes, I am a science/maths/logic oriented person and require proof (where possible) and cannot accept things on faith.

In my mind, if God made us, the planet, everything:
- why are we imperfect?
- why: wars, famine, prejudice, murder, rape, paedophilia, poverty, cancer, natural disasters, etc.?
- why only us (this planet)?

A collection of fantastical tales collected together and presented in such a way as for millions of people to take it (literally) as gospel is one of the most astounding things to me.
I can only assume that some people "need" to believe or they would worry themselves insane about why they are here.

The modern day example of the power of words would probably be the massive reaction to the radio broadcast of The War of the Worlds - people believed it was real.

Maybe it's that some people are gullible, maybe it's a person's upbringing, maybe it's a collection of events that happen to someone that can't be explained any other way, I really don't know.

I'm afraid I put religion in the same box as ghosts, aliens, Santa and the tooth fairy (except that it has caused more wars and prejudices).

[Kezzer]

Cutting to the chase, evolution.

Yes, I am a science/maths/logic oriented person and require proof (where possible) and cannot accept things on faith.

In my mind, if God made us, the planet, everything:
- why are we imperfect?
- why: wars, famine, prejudice, murder, rape, paedophilia, poverty, cancer, natural disasters, etc.?
- why only us (this planet)?

You obviously haven't heard of the equilibrium. There's a few of us who are trying to find full on proof behind this natural force which exists in everything and everyone. This is why there are murders, rapes and so forth.

Personally if there was a god we don't think he knew what the equilibrium is either because nothing can always go right.

Oh and the "why only us" part. We don't know that yet

[scottyman]

All I can say is "heavy, man!"

IMHO the new testament is a pile of old cobblers - old testament is considerably more logical, and wasn't jazzed up to get new readers, if you catch my drift.
No mention of a virgin birth in the old testament, nor that jesus was actually killed on the cross.

Regardless, I don't believe in God per se, more in the fact that most people are inherently good, but evil people exist purely for the fun of it. You're allowed to have morals without having to believe that "something" exists purely to smite you if you're not moral, which you really have to admit, isn't a great motivation.

[Paul Adams]

You obviously haven't heard of the equilibrium. There's a few of us who are trying to find full on proof behind this natural force which exists in everything and everyone. This is why there are murders, rapes and so forth.

Sorry, what is why there are murders, etc?
You are right, I've not heard of this equilibrium theory - is it supposed to work on a microscopic or macroscopic level? Any sites with info on it?
(Are we "balanced" within ourselves, or as a global population?)

The whole point was, though, that if there was a divine being responsible for our creation, why would he allow this to continue to happen, or permit the genocide or persecution of millions of innocent people?

[Rythmic]

OK - heres my look at the situation, hope I don't get banned These are my beliefs so don't take them to heart.

Seems most people here believe in evolution - even if they believe in a god or not. This seems fairly sensible - overwise you'd have to believe that your god buried the skeletons of monsters to confuse us - and your god just wants to mess with our heads.

You can split peoples gods into interventionists (like most of the roman/greek gods - fire and brimestone types), creationists (like the modern christian view), or a mixture of both.

Creationists - they made the universe and now they're playing it out to see what happens - not interfering. You can't say either way wether they exist of not, theres no way of knowing - cause they exist outside the universe. Unfortunately begs the question, "why should they care what each of us do?" or "why should I care what they think of me?"

Interventionists. Physics is making models of the universe to predict what will happen - it doesn't describe the structure of the universe, or why it's here - it only describes the model. Having said that, because it works (and currently, unless you're trying to model very, very small things - or very, very big things - it does) - it rather puts paid to the idea of interventionism - if results are predicatable, where can a god interfere?

I've read the bible, I've read the Koran (which made more sense tbh). I'd say they have as much too teach as a shakespearian play or a Douglas Adams book. Just because it's old, doesn't mean its any more "true" or has any more to "teach" - to me at least.

Most humans have a fear of death - it's healthly and natural - we'd all like to believe that theres something afterwards. But I don't see any reason to believe in any particular religions after death story than any others. Which is a pity - because I would really like to believe that something happens.

On a minor point, the Bible is no longer seen as an article of historical reference - thats why historians covering Egypt had to tear up their timelines and rearrange them in the last 10 years. It had been taken as a baseline - mainly because most early historians where Christian - but unfortunately that left a gap of 200 years with no Pharaoh...

Believe what you want to believe - as long as you're happy

(oh and you don't knock on my door trying to convert me - you won't - it never works - especially not early on a Sunday morning)

[Stringent]

Cutting to the chase, evolution.

Yes, I am a science/maths/logic oriented person and require proof (where possible) and cannot accept things on faith.

In my mind, if God made us, the planet, everything:
- why are we imperfect?
- why: wars, famine, prejudice, murder, rape, paedophilia, poverty, cancer, natural disasters, etc.?
- why only us (this planet)?

If God did make us, then let us take the Biblical stance. God is perfect and everything He made was perfect. He gave us His laws and a will of our own, and we chose not to obey them or Him, hence He gave us over to our wish which was not to serve Him. The actions you say are a direct result of mans disobediance to God.

As for only us, don't you like being special? One of a kind?

[Platinum]

The way I see it is this, I aint wasting my life worrying if there is a god and going to church, when I die ill find out.