Am I right to be annoyed?

[Michael]

I'm dying to know what this highly secretive and embarrasing group is. TELL US!!!

[Saracen]

In my opinion, you've acted harshly and largely taking it on the wrong person. You can publicly deny, you only need to remove yourself from the group, and put a status like "What the.. FB automatically accepts group invitations without permission! Please do NOT invite me without messaging me first. I WILL un-friend you if you do". So if someone pranks after that, you can un-friend them on the basis that they've crossed a line you clearly stated they shouldn't. As it is, someone else can still make that mistake.

If I was in your friend's shoe, I'd feel like I've extended my hand to you, FB forced that hand to your shoulder, and I got a slap in the face as a result. If said it in the first post that you didn't think it was malicious, and I would question if he knew that people he invites do not get a say anymore (as I said, this was news to a few of us).

Even if you are right to be annoyed, I am rather surprised that you'd take measures that's going to add awkwardness between the two of you, if not cost the entire friendship, while not once directed the annoyance toward FB (which did the equivalent of switching the break for the accelerator).

I'd agree that Facebook are largely responsible for this and should face the ire for it but I don't agree that the friend/organiser is faultless either. The friend ought to be able to distinguish between their role as friend and their role as society organiser, and not use personal information given to them as a friend for society purposes.

While I'd able annoyed at Facebook for the way they do things, I'd be annoyed at someone that used my personal information for their society's purposes without my knowledge. If, as appears to be the case, it's a result of a lack of thought or consideration of consequences, then my annoyance would be a lot less, but if I thought they'd done it knowingly, it would result in a loss of friendship.

Facebook's policy should never have become an issue, because information given to a friend as a friend should never have been used for the society's purposes in the first place. And if the friend had respected that difference, Facebook's policy would be academic because the invite would never have been issued and the situation would not have arisen.

[Lucio]

Even if you are right to be annoyed, I am rather surprised that you'd take measures that's going to add awkwardness between the two of you, if not cost the entire friendship, while not once directed the annoyance toward FB (which did the equivalent of switching the break for the accelerator).

I'm being realistic here, Facebook will never listen to me, and will never reverse a decision like this. In the same way the god awful changes that were put in so that all your chat conversations are automatically saved (and no doubt scanned by a computer for key words to sell to advertisers).

You think I'm being harsh, but as others have said it's not because a friend invited me to a FB group, it's because the society invited me to a FB group using information it wasn't supposed to have.

[Unique]

It's not about whether he wants to be part of the group. It's that he got added to it by someone else, with no say in the matter, and by the look of it, by someone that had the details used to add him by virtue of being a friend, not because he'd provided the society with the details.

Suppose you worked for the RSPCA and someone added you to the militant wing of the Animal Liberation Front (or whatever they're called) group? Suppose you're a teacher and someone added you to the Worldwide Paedophile's Photo Club? Suppose you're a defence analyst at GCHQ and someone added you to a known militant Islamic group? Suppose you work for PC World and some added you to PC World Sucks group?

Some of these types of situation could get someone fired. Some could trigger a serious legal investigation and, for instance, your average teacher doesn't want to even be accused for anything remotely resembling child abuse, even if it's subsequently proven to have been false. A friend of mine was on the receiving end of an allegation like that and it nearly wrecked both his career and family life.

The above examples are illustrations of how this could be used maliciously, but it isn't just possible malicious use. it is also possible that people don't want work colleagues to know of everything they do in their social life, and perhaps more significantly, don't want employers to know.

It's also worth remembering that info on the net is somewhat like the proverbial genie getting out of the bottle - it's very easy to let it out, and virtually impossible to get it back in again.

Though TheAnimus put it rather more bluntly in post #33 than I would have, I agree with his conclusions. The moral of this story is that if you don't want to run this risk, don't use Facebook, or things like it.

In fact, if you don't want something you put on the net to be able to potentially bite you in the ass in years to come, don't put it on the net, PERIOD.

For example, not many people on here could identify me personally. Some could, but not many. Yet, when I take a position on something on here, I'm aware that it could, potentially, be traced to me personally. So ..... suppose I had political ambitions? I don't, by the way. The notion fills me with horror. But suppose I had. Or suppose that even though I don't now, I might change my mind in 5 years, or whenever. I've argued, extensively and in detail that, in certain cases, I support the death penalty. I've argued my stance on criminal sentencing, on abortion, on just about every topical issue and many contentious ones, time and again. So .... in years to come, I run for office .... and get everything I said on here thrown back at me, so either I have to justify it, or I have to swallow it and change tack, and look like a hypocrite and opportunist (maybe I ought to consider a political career after all ).

I'm of an age where a political career is about as likely as me winning the X-factor. So I have no qualms about this. But if I were a few decades younger, I wonder if I'd think the same, and realise that anything I put on the net could affect me in years to come. It could, for instance, scupper job chances with a potential employer. If I ever wanted to work for an organisation run by Gordon Brown (not likely, I grant you) I'd guess he'd not feel best flattered by my opinions of him expressed on here. He'd probably be looking for the first objects he could find that weren't nailed down ... and hence were throwable.


So ..... I find it objectionable that personal information, such as membership of a society, can be released into the public domain by someone that had that information as a friend. I'd even wonder if there's a Data Protection Act breach involved, on the society's part, if that friend was acting as an agent of the Society.

And, the notion that Facebook can make policy decisions that result in this kind of thing happening that may not have been policy when I joined is enough to convince me I was right to not join. And they can presumably make other unacceptable policy decisions in the future, whenever they feel like it and of whatever nature they feel like. An outfit like that don't get to have any personal information about me. The downside, for me at least, is far bigger than the upside. If I had joined, I'd leave.

the thing is people on facebook make groups for all sorts of reasons (most of which are just waste of time like vote younguy to win x factor), and as facebook is an attention seekers site, everyone wants as many people as possible to join a group so people tend to use the "everyone" option for invites and posts. that wasn't so bad when you had a choice to join a group or not, but now you are automatically added. so the friend may or may not have known that and not thought of the implications

as such, millions of people are being added to thousands of groups on a daily basis, and millions of people post crap on others walls on an hourly basis. that's facebook. and that's why you need to keep a tight control over your information on the internet if you are really so concerned about privacy. there is absolutely no need to join or use the site, but if you do, that's what you get, and i would presume most users would understand that too, so wouldn't take so deeply when someone joins a group

the thing is, if you really do believe in ALF or whatever, then if you are linked to the group and there are consequences, is that such a bad thing? if you believe in something that you are ashamed to let people know about, maybe you should live with the consequences if they find out. it's not like the UK put people in prison for having certain political beliefs. if you don't agree with it you can post on facebook to tell the world what happened and you don't agree with it

my main point is, if you have a job/career where what you post online may have an effect on your job/career, it's probably best to steer clear of these sites, and take this situation as a warning

i've never posted anything online with my real name, or address, phone number etc and i've been online daily since the 90s. if i google my real name i find nothing, and i choose a username that is so common that makes searching a waste of time. but other people will post all sorts of stuff online in their real name in easily identifiable and searchable places like facebook. just imagine when todays teenagers try and get a job and employers find photos, videos and all sorts of other antics online

it's not facebooks fault, it's the users who join and let others see what they say and others say about them

[Unique]

I'm being realistic here, Facebook will never listen to me, and will never reverse a decision like this. In the same way the god awful changes that were put in so that all your chat conversations are automatically saved (and no doubt scanned by a computer for key words to sell to advertisers).

You think I'm being harsh, but as others have said it's not because a friend invited me to a FB group, it's because the society invited me to a FB group using information it wasn't supposed to have.

what information was it not supposed to have?

and what personal data has been seen by others that they shouldn't have seen?

and by "others", who are they? other friends you have added or other people in the group, or anyone on facebook?

and is it an official facebook group, or just somethign that your friend setup (who may or may not be officially linked to the organisation)?

i mean i could work for dixons and add all my friends to a newly created group by myself called "i love dixons and by all my stuff from them" but would have no official authorisation from dixons to do so and dixons aren't likely to care

[Blitzen]

I cannot understand why anyone would want to stick their life onto the internet for all too see!

My sister-in-law has a FB account, and i watched her using it once to see what all the fuss was about. I couldn't believe that there are some amazing saddo's that even post when the are hungry, or off to bed.
They then decide to say its how they keep up with their friends <---rubbish...... if they wre friends you would go and see them, or if they are far away, use a telephone.

Right to be annoyed Lucio........i don't think so.
If you post your life away on a site like this, it will happen at some point.

[Lucio]

what information was it not supposed to have?

and what personal data has been seen by others that they shouldn't have seen?

and by "others", who are they? other friends you have added or other people in the group, or anyone on facebook?

and is it an official facebook group, or just somethign that your friend setup (who may or may not be officially linked to the organisation)?

i mean i could work for dixons and add all my friends to a newly created group by myself called "i love dixons and by all my stuff from them" but would have no official authorisation from dixons to do so and dixons aren't likely to care

I'm sorry to say this but you're coming across as being rather ignorant here, I wouldn't be reacting this way if it wasn't an official group for the society. It was setup by my friend as part of their job within the society, and obviously at no point did the society ask for my FB details (and if they had, then I'd declined to have given them).

Your example, therefore, is completely irrelvant to the situation. If it'd been that situation, then I wouldn't have any right to be annoyed at my friend, only at FB for their stupid group mechanicism.

...I cannot understand why anyone would want to stick their life onto the internet for all too see!....

I chose to share *some* parts of my life on FB, and yes the posts do tend to be rather banal, it's the equivilent of chatting down the pub, or round a mates house. You talk about the things that interest you, and the things that you've done.

With regards to Facebook's misconduct in the whole situation, you're right, I should expect it to happen. One day they might flip a switch on my privacy settings and suddenly the whole world can see everything I've written.


What I shouldn't have to accept, or expect, is that a society organiser decides to use private contact details that the society does not have.

[Unique]

it just sounds like you are over reacting and worrying about next to nothing

you won't provide answers to peoples questions to help explain the situation, which usually occurs when people are avoiding being found out that they were in the wrong themselves and trying to back track on the original statement and cover up any further information. it's easy enough to be ignorant if you won't answer the questions to provide the data too us so we aren't ignorant to the situation

from what you say, the position sounds like this...

you voluntarily joined facebook

you voluntarily setup an account that can identify yourself, perhaps in your own name

you voluntarily entered certain data about yourself in facebook and agreed to facebooks terms

you allowed other people to view your account and the data you voluntarily entered

you allowed other people to add you as a friend, either by accepting friend requests or by setting up your account to automatically accept them

you allowed the friend in question to be made aware of your facebook profile and allowed them to be added as a friend

you had your account set in a way that let people see data you had entered, and data that you allowed others to enter on your account


thus you setup the account, you let people see it, and now you are complaining, but you voluntarily took those steps

if there is something missing, then please let us know


what information was it not supposed to have?

and what personal data has been seen by others that they shouldn't have seen?

and by "others", who are they? other friends you have added or other people in the group, or anyone on facebook?


and when you say your friend added you to an "official group", presumably he could only do that if he was your facebook friend in the first place, thus you allowed him to be added as a friend and you allowed other people to post on your wall in your facebook settings, and you allowed other people to see your wall in your facebook settings. if you have your settings in such a way, anyone can post anything on your wall

you say they used your personal data, but you haven't mentioned what personal data this is, so how can anyone understand the position? from all i can tell, you've entered the data yourself and allowed other people to see it, and all that's happened is you've set your privacy settings in a way that's let other people on facebook that you've added as friends see something that someone else posted, which from what i can tell is not personal data in the way you are trying to make it out to be

[Lucio]

..wall of text...

Ummm.... yes, you are missing something

The Facebook identity itself is the "personal data" that was misused.

[Unique]

Ummm.... yes, you are missing something

The Facebook identity itself is the "personal data" that was misused.

so what exactly is your concern?

that people you don't know who are part of the group can see your facebook username?

it really does sound like you are worrying over absolutely nothing

if you are still concerned, i suggest you remove yourself from the group, delete the wall post, and set your settings so people can't see your wall or add to your wall, or just delete your account alltogether

you seem to miss the whole point of a social networking site

[Lucio]

so what exactly is your concern?

that people you don't know who are part of the group can see your facebook username?

it really does sound like you are worrying over absolutely nothing

if you are still concerned, i suggest you remove yourself from the group, delete the wall post, and set your settings so people can't see your wall or add to your wall, or just delete your account alltogether

you seem to miss the whole point of a social networking site

And you seem to be missing the whole point of the Data Protection Act.

Pieces of personally identifiable information are there to be protected, and only shared with the consent of the person to whom they relate. What my concern is that if they chose to share one piece of information, what's to stop them doing the same to things like my phone number, address, email address etc?

You're right in that it was a minor incident in terms of the damage done, but the implications behind the thinking, or rather complete lack of thinking, are worrying for someone who is supposed to be resonsible for all the personal information that the society keeps on it's members.

[TooNice]

You think I'm being harsh, but as others have said it's not because a friend invited me to a FB group, it's because the society invited me to a FB group using information it wasn't supposed to have.

Are you pissed off because:

A. The principle that a friend, who is also an organiser of the society, invited to a FB group? i.e. You believe, as Saracen suggested, that it should not even have crossed his mind at all.

B. You don't mind the principle, so long as you get to approve the request first in order to prevent your friends from finding out what you don't want them to find.

The difference between A & B is that in A you would think it's messed up whether it is a staff you know from Hexus (or whatever you don't mind your friends knowing), or the organiser from Speed Dating UK (or whatever you don't want your friends to know).

Whereas in B, you don't mind receiving the invites. You may even welcome the one you don't mind your friends knowing, although you will simply decline the other ones.

If it's B, then FB should take the blunt of your annoyance. To direct it all on your 'friend' just because you can't ago against FB is simply unfair. After all, he might think that there is nothing to be embarrassed about, or even know that FB will auto-accepts. Your friend can't read mind.

Now if the real reason is A, then I'll have say "to each their own". Principles are personal. If I was to consider whether I'd be pissed at if the organisers+friends of various society I am member of were to send me an invite to a FB group, the answer is no. There are multiple reasons for that. First of all, the person may be inviting me to the group as a friend: "Oh yeah, this friend of mine is member of our club - he hasn't joined our FB page, perhaps he doesn't know about it - I'll send him an invite.". A friend may think that, I do not believe that being an organiser should change that. Secondly I only see FB pages as semi-private (and that's AFTER tightening up privacy settings). Anyone who is already friends with your friend (and chances are, this will include other staff members of the society) could have found about your page through his friend list. As far as FB is concerned (and just about any other social networking site), the existence of a FB page can't be completely private. Merely the content within (so far).

[Unique]

And you seem to be missing the whole point of the Data Protection Act.

Pieces of personally identifiable information are there to be protected, and only shared with the consent of the person to whom they relate. What my concern is that if they chose to share one piece of information, what's to stop them doing the same to things like my phone number, address, email address etc?

You're right in that it was a minor incident in terms of the damage done, but the implications behind the thinking, or rather complete lack of thinking, are worrying for someone who is supposed to be resonsible for all the personal information that the society keeps on it's members.

but in regards to the DPA, you gave your permission for the data, you choose to join the site, accept the terms, you provided the data yourself, so no breach

to provide the other data, you would need to submit that yourself, which you may have already done, and leave your settings so there people can see them. thus you are in control of your data. you don't have to join the site, you don't have to put your personal data on the site, and you don't have to allow anyone to see it

you are worry unnecessarily about a what if situation that hasn't occurred

regarding the individual in question, he hasn't provided any personal data at all. you provided that yourself, and from what you have stated, the only data you are talking about is your facebook username, that you provided yourself

if you are concerned about further leaks or intrusions, just make your page completely private or delete your account. there is no need to have a facebook account. if you really want one, delete your existing account and start a new one under another name that can't be identified to yourself to anyone you haven't advised. few people know my facebook ID and i use a specific email address so people can't find me unless i want them to

and yes, being added to groups without confirming is a pain, but it's not the end of the world. you just unjoin. protect your wall so others can't see it and no-one else can post on it, stick your security settings at highest and people can't even invite you unless they are a friend of a friend, nevermind see your account details

facebook is basically a law unto itself. if you are in the slightest bit concerned about your privacy you are best to avoid it completely. i'd never have an account in my real name or subscribe to a forum in my real name

but with the situation you describe, you shouldn't worry about it. by all means express your concerns to your friend, but for the sake of your friendship don't write it as a complaint if you want to remain friends

[Unique]

one other thing, it's taken me literally 2 seconds to find the thing that you are worried about. if you post on sites with your real name then anyone can find you. they don't need facebook to find out

[Saracen]

.....

as such, millions of people are being added to thousands of groups on a daily basis, and millions of people post crap on others walls on an hourly basis. that's facebook. and that's why you need to keep a tight control over your information on the internet if you are really so concerned about privacy. there is absolutely no need to join or use the site, but if you do, that's what you get, and i would presume most users would understand that too, so wouldn't take so deeply when someone joins a group....

That's all true, but I also expect my friends to be a bit more respectful of how they use any personal information they have about me.

For instance, if my friend Fred has my home phone number I don't expect him to add it to his company's cold-calling database, even if he knows I'm a customer of that company. If I wanted the company to have that info, I'd have given it to them. And that is a parallel to what this friend/organiser did. He (or she, if I read Lucio correctly) used information they only had as a friend for promotion of the society.

.....

my main point is, if you have a job/career where what you post online may have an effect on your job/career, it's probably best to steer clear of these sites, and take this situation as a warning
....

I don't disagree with that, and it's one reason why I don't use Facebook, etc. But nonetheless, it would be enough to make me wonder, if a friend misused one bit of personal information for their business in this way, would they misuse other bits.

.....

i've never posted anything online with my real name, or address, phone number etc and i've been online daily since the 90s. if i google my real name i find nothing, and i choose a username that is so common that makes searching a waste of time. but other people will post all sorts of stuff online in their real name in easily identifiable and searchable places like facebook. just imagine when todays teenagers try and get a job and employers find photos, videos and all sorts of other antics online

it's not facebooks fault, it's the users who join and let others see what they say and others say about them

It's partly Facebook's fault for the way they seem to operate their site, and it's reason enough for me to not use them, or leave if I had joined. But it's more than that. It's the fault of a "friend" with a lack of discretion, a lack of the ability to understand that what they are told in private should not be used for their business, or for a society, unless they have the permission of the person that gave it or know they will not object.

Many people have different facets to their lives. My personal life is not an open book, for instance, to people I work with, let alone my employer. Frankly, it's none of their damn business unless I choose to tell them. My employer has the right to certain information, including in some situations and to a limited extent, my medical situation, and certainly to name, address, NI number and tax reference. They do not have a right to know who my friends are, what clubs I join or what my hobbies are. And the converse is, to some extent, true of friends - they have no right to medical data that an employer might have a legitimate claim to, nor do they have a right to pass out information I've given them unless I've made it clear to them that they can .... such as email address or phone number.

I have access on here to, for instance, the registered email address of all members, but I'm not about to give it out to anyone without either permission from the account holder, or a valid court order. There are a number of people on here, with whom, over the years, I've had private PM exchanges. Sometimes, those exchanges include aspects of health information, name of employer, home phone number, what car they drive, and so on. I won't even pass that on to other members of the Mod team, let alone anyone else. In other words, my default position is that personal information given to me in one capacity and for one purpose is for use in that capacity and for that purpose ONLY.

It's about respecting boundaries. And, it's also about trust.

For instance, as a journalist, I've met all sorts of people and have all sorts of contact data in business, government and the legal system. I've also got some contacts as a result of family ties. But I don't abuse them and I certainly wouldn't give them out. If nothing else, it's about trust. It has to be earned, and it can easily be lost.

The damage from this FB group member may well be absolutely minimal, but were it me in Lucio's position, it would at the very least raise doubts in my mind about this friend's judgement in having used information they had as a friend in an "official" capacity at this society. One i learn someone is a blabbermouth that can't be trusted, at the very least I'm going to be very careful indeed what information I give them in the future.

That's why, were it me, I'd let this friend/organiser know I objected, and why. Quite how upset I got about it, or how upset I let them see I was, would depend on several things, and this case doesn't seem to be a particularly large problem. But the principle is. It could have had consequences that the friend/organiser had no way to anticipate, which is one reason why, when told personal information (be it email address or medical information, or whatever) as a friend, it's a good idea to keep it to yourself and not pre-empt or presume your friend's wishes as to who they wish told about it. It could have had impact in other relationships (if the wife/girlfriend didn't know about Lucio's secret passion for stamp-collecting, or Church architecture, or collecting Beano annuals, or whatever), but worse, it could potentially have had consequences for employment or future employment.

[Unique]

^

i think we need to put this a bit more in perspective

the OP has provided enough personal data on this site for anyone to find out the group he belongs to

the group is a leisure activity. it's not against the law or one that anyone would argue is in anyway immoral like fox hunting. it's one that perhaps some people might give him a little bit stick about, such as collecting care bears or amateur dramatics. the group isn't a big organisation, it appears to be something similar to this site, run by one individual mainly, with maybe some help from other volunteers

it has no bearing on the OP's occupation at all. in fact if you were to stereotype the OP's occupation you might find the leisure activity to fit in with that stereotype. thus if he told you what it was, and what he did, it wouldn't exactly be shocking. in fact, you would probably say, "is that it???"

no private info has been disclosed. the whole situation is that the OP is worried that some people might know about this activity and embarrass him about it. i can understand the situation completely. there are some things i like that i don't exactly spread it around at work that i like doing, as it would make me sound like a nerd or fanatic, but i don't completely hide it either. i also knew someone who did the exact same thing, and other who do similar things and they hide it so they don't get slagged at work as it's not exactly deemed the most socially cool thing on the streetwiseomitor (which i have to let you know in secret that it doesn't actually exist!!!)

thus the whole situation is a big mountain out of a molehill. the OP is worrying for no reason

facebook have something available to prevent this. you can seperate friends, family, collegues etc into different groups, so your idiot "mates" don't post drunken photos of you naked tied to a lamp post at the weekend and a collegue spots them and emails them around the office, and likewise your cool friends you go clubbing with don't see you getting an award from the boss for being an asslicker

basically the friend and the OP enjoy an activity, they are obviously both enthusiastic about the subject and the friend has started a facebook group and asked his friends to join. as a result of facebook no longer requiring acceptance to join a group, it means the OP is automatically joined and a result of this has meant a post on his facebook wall that other facebook friends could read if they looked up his account and read it before he deleted it. they could potentially look and see what groups he belongs to, although both these options can be set so no-one can see, or even so no-one can post in the first place

so to sum it up, a friend has just been enthusiastic about a new facebook group he started, and the OP is worried that his friends might slag him off for doing that activity as he hasn't set his privacy settings high enough for his personal situation, in that he is embarrassed about his personal pursuits

a mountain of a molehill... and a lesson to be learned. if you have personal pursuits that you don't want people to know about, be wary of your facebook settings and who you invite as a friend

as for DPA, nothing amiss here

if i've missed something, the OP can correct me. although as he has been online since my last post, i think i'm spot on