View Poll Results: Are you religious?

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  • Yes - I believe in God etc

    17 22.08%
  • No - I'm an atheist

    60 77.92%
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Thread: Are you religious?

  1. #81
    HEXUS.Metal Knoxville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nichomach
    Actually, millions do every year, Knoxy; myself among them. I was raised in an at best agnostic household and came to Chrisitianity rather late on, in my late twenties. I most certainly was allowed to form my own beliefs; it's just that like millions of perfectly sensible ordinary adults I came to a belief in God.

    Millions every year? why aren't we all christians by now then? Until I see numbers that say otherwise I'm gonna believe that your in a minority man because your the only person I know thats turned to christianity with no prior interest and adopted it.

    Quote Originally Posted by nichomach
    Or have followed Marxism or National Socialism or manifest destiny or historical inevitability or whatever. You don't need religion to provide an excuse for evil conduct; humans are easily imperfect enough to create excuses for themselves.
    No you don't and many evil acts that have been carried out have had nothing to do with religion, but many more have, the holocaust, the crusades, and bringing it bang up to date 9/11, have all been perpatrated by people using religion as they're reasoning. and while they may not have needed religion to take the blame it worked out nicely for them didn't it


    Quote Originally Posted by nichomach
    My coming to faith certainly had nothing to do with fear or a desire for a comfort blanket; indeed, were that the case, there were times in my life when I would have needed that far more than when I became a Christian. But then I have never met a Christian who became one through fear.
    I've met many, they may not say "I became a christian because I was scared" but alot of reasons that people give to turning to religion are fear based e.g "I just didn't know where my life was going so I turned to god and he showed me the way" - fear of the unknown, fear that if they didn't do something that they're existence would become meaningless, what better thing to do than turn to a religion that tells you how to live your life.

    Quote Originally Posted by nichomach
    Errrr...the 19th century on WHAT PLANET? For pity's sake Knoxy, in the 19th century on earth we'd known that the earth was round for several hundred years, and mermaids were regarded as myths. The charts didn't read "here be dragons" and so far from believing the world to be flat, John Harrison had produced his first marine chronometer in 1737 (that would be some 63 years before the 19th century began) to deal with the problem of accurately reckoning longitude.
    Seeing as it was early in the morning and i'd had a few beers earlier I was gonna make a mistake somewhere in that huge saracen style post, Consider my earlier example of clever people being wrong to be discarded and this new one put in place, In the 20th century right up until recently the cleverest minds on earth thought the atom was the smallest thing.......and then we broke it open and discovered we were wrong.

  2. #82
    HEXUS.Metal Knoxville's Avatar
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    Jeez, I spent so long typing that out that there's more now........right I'll deal with that in a minute, need a cig now tbh

  3. #83
    Will work for beer... nichomach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knoxville
    No you don't and many evil acts that have been carried out have had nothing to do with religion, but many more have, the holocaust, the crusades, and bringing it bang up to date 9/11, have all been perpatrated by people using religion as they're reasoning. and while they may not have needed religion to take the blame it worked out nicely for them didn't it
    Given that the holocaust was actually perpetrated not FOR a religion but for hatred OF a particular religion, and in the name of a secular ideology with a spurious pseudo-scientific justification then that's more a point for my side than yours, Knoxy. The crusades were exactly the same land-grab that previously had been practiced in Europe and was in fact practiced by just about every other culture at the time. It was wrong, you won't find me defending it, but then you won't find me saying that every atheist is guilty of the genocidal crimes carried out by Stalin in the name of Marxism-Leninism or that every secular person is responsible for the holocaust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knoxville
    I've met many, they may not say "I became a christian because I was scared" but alot of reasons that people give to turning to religion are fear based e.g "I just didn't know where my life was going so I turned to god and he showed me the way" - fear of the unknown, fear that if they didn't do something that they're existence would become meaningless, what better thing to do than turn to a religion that tells you how to live your life.
    So...if they'd turned to a secular ideology that wouldn't be because of fear, but because they turn to God it is? All they're saying is that they realised something was missing from their lives, took a look and realised that the something was God. That makes them cowards? I'd rather say that it makes them both brave and humble enough to acknowledge something greater and more powerful than themselves. It's certainly not fear, however much you might try to twist that statement to imply that it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knoxville
    Consider my earlier example of clever people being wrong to be discarded
    Willingly, happy to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knoxville
    and this new one put in place, In the 20th century right up until recently the cleverest minds on earth thought the atom was the smallest thing.......and then we broke it open and discovered we were wrong.
    And right now a lot of very clever scientists believe that there's no such thing as God (although a very great many do believe in God); and they may later be proven to be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex
    One final point. People here repeatedly say they mean no offense, then call my religion things like 'tat', 'mush', and 'frankly ridiculaous'. If you didn't want to be offensive then I'm sure it wouldn't have taken you long to think of less offensive ways of putting it, would it?
    I generally find the phrase "no offence" is most commonly used by those who know they are going to be offensive, can't be bothered to exert the minimal effort not to be and are seeking a frankly disingenuous fig-leaf to cover their discourtesy...

  4. #84
    Blue Army Member spazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spud1
    I used to be but since then i grew up and got my own brain, realised that religion is just a control measure that has been used as such for hundreds of years. The basic morals of christianity I still follow, but the idea that theres a god is just rediculous to me...I have my own brain, i dont need to be controled by some rediculous idea of a higher power
    Amen to that
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex
    Yes, they are compatible. Genesis is nothing more than a story designed to show the theological thruths it contains.
    What does that mean exactly? I heard that the days, each are several million years or something?
    You've got to have a dream, if you don't have a dream, how you gonna have a dream come true?

  6. #86
    Kirstie Allsopp Theo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nichomach
    I generally find the phrase "no offence" is most commonly used by those who know they are going to be offensive, can't be bothered to exert the minimal effort not to be and are seeking a frankly disingenuous fig-leaf to cover their discourtesy...
    Personally, I use the term "no offence intended" because I know that my views may offend some. However, I'm not going to hold back my opinion just because it's going to offend someone. Whilst it's my opinion and I'm free to express it, I do not express it with the intention of offending someone. I'm sure others would agree.

  7. #87
    Spider pig, spider pig
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    Quote Originally Posted by midzt
    What does that mean exactly? I heard that the days, each are several million years or something?
    It means exactly what it says on the tin

    People try and associate 'days' to 'ages', but it just doesn't fit, plants before sunlight etc, and misses the point of what Genesis is really all about. Basically, Genesis is, imo, a fictional story used to show that God created us, the story of sin etc, in the same way that Jesus used parables to explain his points.

    Alex

  8. #88
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    Evolution and Belief in God are not compatible ideas if you can decide which is accurate. They are compatible if you adopt the ineffectual middle ground that this country and the people in it choose to do in so many matters.

    DNA:

    Yes. I think I use the term radical rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “Atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘Agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean Atheist. I really do not believe that there is a god - in fact I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one. It’s easier to say that I am a radical Atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously. It’s funny how many people are genuinely surprised to hear a view expressed so strongly. In England we seem to have drifted from vague wishy-washy Anglicanism to vague wishy-washy Agnosticism - both of which I think betoken a desire not to have to think about things too much.

    People will then often say “But surely it’s better to remain an Agnostic just in case?” This, to me, suggests such a level of silliness and muddle that I usually edge out of the conversation rather than get sucked into it. (If it turns out that I’ve been wrong all along, and there is in fact a god, and if it further turned out that this kind of legalistic, cross-your-fingers-behind-your-back, Clintonian hair-splitting impressed him, then I think I would chose not to worship him anyway.)

    Other people will ask how I can possibly claim to know? Isn’t belief-that-there-is-not-a-god as irrational, arrogant, etc., as belief-that-there-is-a-god? To which I say no for several reasons. First of all I do not believe-that-there-is-not-a-god. I don’t see what belief has got to do with it. I believe or don’t believe my four-year old daughter when she tells me that she didn’t make that mess on the floor. I believe in justice and fair play (though I don’t know exactly how we achieve them, other than by continually trying against all possible odds of success). I also believe that England should enter the European Monetary Union. I am not remotely enough of an economist to argue the issue vigorously with someone who is, but what little I do know, reinforced with a hefty dollop of gut feeling, strongly suggests to me that it’s the right course. I could very easily turn out to be wrong, and I know that. These seem to me to be legitimate uses for the word believe. As a carapace for the protection of irrational notions from legitimate questions, however, I think that the word has a lot of mischief to answer for. So, I do not believe-that-there-is-no-god. I am, however, convinced that there is no god, which is a totally different stance and takes me on to my second reason.

    I don’t accept the currently fashionable assertion that any view is automatically as worthy of respect as any equal and opposite view. My view is that the moon is made of rock. If someone says to me “Well, you haven’t been there, have you? You haven’t seen it for yourself, so my view that it is made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese is equally valid” - then I can’t even be bothered to argue. There is such a thing as the burden of proof, and in the case of god, as in the case of the composition of the moon, this has shifted radically. God used to be the best explanation we’d got, and we’ve now got vastly better ones. God is no longer an explanation of anything, but has instead become something that would itself need an insurmountable amount of explaining. So I don’t think that being convinced that there is no god is as irrational or arrogant a point of view as belief that there is. I don’t think the matter calls for even-handedness at all.
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  9. #89
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    People try and associate 'days' to 'ages', but it just doesn't fit, plants before sunlight etc, and misses the point of what Genesis is really all about. Basically, Genesis is, imo, a fictional story used to show that God created us, the story of sin etc, in the same way that Jesus used parables to explain his points.
    A fictional story in the Bible?! Who'd have thought it?

    You're not telling me there never was a talking snake are you? That was my favourite part. It all got a bit violent after that and I lost interest.

    I thought the Bible was the word of God though, so how do you know which bits are just stories to explain simple morals to the hard of thinking who need guidelines to live their lives, and which are the divine word of God, every last word the truth?

    It’s a brave man who decides he alone knows which parts are which.

    Personally, with the countless slaughter of human life committed in his name over the years, the widespread rape and child molestation that takes place in the Christian Church committed by Priests (Representatives of God on Earth?) in Church (The house of God?) as well as the appalling cruelty and sexual abuse carried out by members of other Christian institutions (Nuns, Christian Care Workers etc), I think that rather than worship the entity which has caused untold, incalculable misery throughout the world, we should distance ourselves from 'it', as much as is humanly possible.

    Who wants to associate themselves with bigotry, hatred, murder, paedophilia, and the countless slaughter of human life?

    Not me, that’s for sure.

    Not only do I not believe in God, but you certainly wouldn't find me worshiping God, were its existence proven. In fact, were God to exist, I would say that 'it' would be, by a very wide margin, the single biggest cause of misery in human history.

    Praise the Lord indeed.
    Last edited by Stewart; 18-09-2004 at 06:54 PM.

  10. #90
    Richard Allen Evans mr_anderson187's Avatar
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    some bigass posting going on here, i voted for the YES answer, im a Protestant - Church of Ireland' and we over here in northern ireland know all to well what its like to argue over religions,

    interesting read nonetheless
    Under Development...

  11. #91
    Will work for beer... nichomach's Avatar
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    In that case you'd better distance yourself from every human institution full stop, Vaul, since all of those are part of human nature and they'll be something you'll have to deal with whether you can use religion as a convenient whipping-boy or not.

    I hear all about the evil acts which people attempt to twist religion to justify, but that rather skates over the large amount of good done by people of faith; the Red Cross, Christian Aid, CAFOD, the TEAR fund, the Samaritans - all of these organizations help to save thousands upon thousands of lives every year. All are currently run by people of faith or were set up by people of faith. William Wilberforce who campaigned for the end of slavery in Britain, Martin Luther King (an ordained minister no less), or Martin Niemoller, sent to Dachau for opposing the Nazis (or for that matter Bernard Lichtenberg, Canon of St Hedwig's Cathedral in Berlin, who was instrumental in saving the contents of the central synagogue in Berlin and after the Kristallnacht prayed every night at evening prayers in open service for the Jews until he in turn was arrested and died on his way to Dachau) were all people motivated by and sustained by their faith.

    People will always find an excuse to do evil; if religion didn't exist, they'd use whatever political or pseudo-scientific theory they fancied to justify it just as the Nazis did, or for that matter as Stalinist Russia did. Associating that solely with religion as though God somehow directed us toward genocide when in fact no faith does and in fact they direct us to precisely the opposite is self-delusional hypocrisy.

    edit: I would note that an incidence of rape, child abuse and cruelty is endemic among secular childrens' homes. Presumably they should all be closed as well, eh Vaul? Unless of course your contention is that child abuse is part of Christ's teaching.
    Last edited by nichomach; 18-09-2004 at 07:27 PM.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaul
    Who wants to associate themselves with bigotry, hatred, murder, paedophilia, and the countless slaughter of human life?
    Whoever wants to associate themselves with the human race

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    DNA: Well, it’s a rather corny story. As a teenager I was a committed Christian. It was in my background. I used to work for the school chapel in fact. Then one day when I was about eighteen I was walking down the street when I heard a street evangelist and, dutifully, stopped to listen. As I listened it began to be borne in on me that he was talking complete nonsense, and that I had better have a bit of a think about it.

    I’ve put that a bit glibly. When I say I realized he was talking nonsense, what I mean is this. In the years I’d spent learning History, Physics, Latin, Math, I’d learnt (the hard way) something about standards of argument, standards of proof, standards of logic, etc. In fact we had just been learning how to spot the different types of logical fallacy, and it suddenly became apparent to me that these standards simply didn’t seem to apply in religious matters. In religious education we were asked to listen respectfully to arguments which, if they had been put forward in support of a view of, say, why the Corn Laws came to be abolished when they were, would have been laughed at as silly and childish and - in terms of logic and proof -just plain wrong. Why was this?

    Well, in history, even though the understanding of events, of cause and effect, is a matter of interpretation, and even though interpretation is in many ways a matter of opinion, nevertheless those opinions and interpretations are honed to within an inch of their lives in the withering crossfire of argument and counterargument, and those that are still standing are then subjected to a whole new round of challenges of fact and logic from the next generation of historians - and so on. All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.

    So, I was already familiar with and (I’m afraid) accepting of, the view that you couldn’t apply the logic of physics to religion, that they were dealing with different types of ‘truth’. (I now think this is baloney, but to continue...) What astonished me, however, was the realization that the arguments in favor of religious ideas were so feeble and silly next to the robust arguments of something as interpretative and opinionated as history. In fact they were embarrassingly childish. They were never subject to the kind of outright challenge which was the normal stock in trade of any other area of intellectual endeavor whatsoever. Why not? Because they wouldn’t stand up to it. So I became an Agnostic. And I thought and thought and thought. But I just did not have enough to go on, so I didn’t really come to any resolution. I was extremely doubtful about the idea of god, but I just didn’t know enough about anything to have a good working model of any other explanation for, well, life, the universe and everything to put in its place. But I kept at it, and I kept reading and I kept thinking. Sometime around my early thirties I stumbled upon evolutionary biology, particularly in the form of Richard Dawkins’s books The Selfish Gene and then The Blind Watchmaker and suddenly (on, I think the second reading of The Selfish Gene) it all fell into place. It was a concept of such stunning simplicity, but it gave rise, naturally, to all of the infinite and baffling complexity of life. The awe it inspired in me made the awe that people talk about in respect of religious experience seem, frankly, silly beside it. I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
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  14. #94
    Will work for beer... nichomach's Avatar
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    I have no objection to being referred to Douglas Adams, but surely a link to the interview would suffice?

    Like this...?
    Last edited by nichomach; 18-09-2004 at 10:09 PM.

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    Religion (and politics) are very contencious and over the years have caused more problems than they solve

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultimate
    Religion (and politics) are very contencious and over the years have caused more problems than they solve
    I really agree. Unfornatley it is like that..
    Love, Peace and Linux

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