Heaven: Not so good??

[TiG]

I worship Odin. And what you are saying is, if I worshiped a bottle of Coke called Susan, as its my system of beliving things, it should be given as much respect as the major religions and science?

Are all Gods and the right to worship them equally protected in your opinion?

Are Allah and Ra equal?

What about tribes that worship bizare Gods, worshiped only by a few dozen people... as worthy a cause as the study of sciecne to better ourselves? Or would we all be better off shouting 'Praise the Lord' whilst dancing naked around a Silver Birch in a pair of yellow swimming goggles sacrificing a hedgehog?

Religion holds us back.

Open mind means that i can look at those ideas and think no I don't think they are right and discount them. Does it mean i should repress those ideas and terrorise the people having them?. No it doesn't.

Do I feel my ideas are worth more than others, no i don't. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. At some point though you have to respect that is their belief and let them get on with it.

Religion can be a powerful driver and a source of passion to peoples lives. They can go on and achieve wonderful things in life. Does it mean every does?, no, as i said we are humans and as such we are no where near to perfect.

But what we can do immensly well is pick up on our differences.

I even do this with my first response to this thread, picking up on not being able to love someone who has committed dozens of murders...

"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded"

In this day in age nothing is what it seems at first...

As for religion...I spit on it, it has given unpleasant types an excuse for war and is now really showing its age, its about time ALL religions were abolished from our modern society...

I personally am a spirituallist, as this seems the most logical way forward...

Its our ability to find "fault" that holds us back, not religion. We should remember first we are all human, before finding differences that set us apart. Who says that there won't be a war between aethists/spiritualists and christians?. Beliefs is a better reason for wars that religions.

Earth will fight over oil and land and food in the future. My belief that i'm more worth of the oil is my belief and my downfall.

Work together to find a solution to the problem with common goals.

TiG

[BEANFro Elite]

Its our ability to find "fault" that holds us back, not religion. We should remember first we are all human, before finding differences that set us apart. Who says that there won't be a war between aethists/spiritualists and christians?. Beliefs is a better reason for wars that religions.
TiG

Exactly, it was a MAN who wrote the bible, it was a MAN who created religion, why??

Because the people who wrote the Bible, were among the cleverest people of the time, they knew if they could scare the ordinary peasant folk then they could control them, as in those days people were capable of great nasty things, it was meant to discourage people from stealing or killing people...

However nowadays, religion is longer required as it merely states the obvious and thus becomes very patronising...and now that people nowadays are cleverer in general, all the holes in religion being exposed.

[Alex]

TBH, I'm not really sure there's any point in posting here as there's no way anyone will change their belief system on the basis of a thread discussion on a techy forum about God, but I might as well throw in my 2p.

Firstly, the idea of heaven and hell as posted by you is not actually the view posted in the bible. This may come as a surprise to many, probably to many christians as well, but if you actually look at it, heaven is a word used in the bible to describe the 'spiritual realms'. It is NOT some kind of floating around on clouds 'being happy in a airy-fairy non-descript manner', playing with harps. That idea is not from the bible, it is an idea that western civilisation has come to add to the beliefs in the bible, but isn't there. The 'after-life' as described in the bible is still on earth, but life as it should be. No more evil or desire to do evil, no death, pain, or suffering, but still in a physical world. Its a restoration of the world to the way it should be. There is no promise that in the next life we will have everything we want, just that we will be happy with how it is. Your argument that 'heaven can't be heaven because my girlfirend won't be there' just doesn't work.

Hell on the other hand is an eternal separation from this - to be told by God 'depart from me' and to never experience life as it was meant to be. What exactly that experience is like I have no idea - the bible says it wouldn't be very nice, and uses words like 'torment' and 'gnashing of teeth', but this is not got getting annoyed and saying 'Sorry, but I just don't like you', it's just the natural consequence of your life saying 'I don't want to be with God.'

Flame me if you want, and scorn my religion if it really makes you feel better, but at least try to know what your talking about before slagging it off.

[TiG]

Exactly, it was a MAN who wrote the bible, it was a MAN who created religion, why??

Because the people who wrote the Bible, were among the cleverest people of the time, they knew if they could scare the ordinary peasant folk then they could control them, as in those days people were capable of great nasty things, it was meant to discourage people from stealing or killing people...

However nowadays, religion is longer required as it merely states the obvious and thus becomes very patronising...and now that people nowadays are cleverer in general, all the holes in religion being exposed.

Man created Science too why?.

Science tries to explain the reason things happen. The seek an order to the chaos. Yet we still know so little. Laws stop people stealing and killing BeanFro, they have been about before Christianity was formed.

Religious preaching forcing ideas on you is very patronising, I fully agree with that. But all the holes in religion?, i think you are over playing that extensively. Just remember how many times the bible has been translated and how difficult translations are in any language. Its a book that is 2000 years old.

Religion to me helps me form a base for my moral code, both helped and reinforced by good parents and a stable house for my upbringing.

Some would say football is a religion, enough people follow it worldwide. It has rules, preachings, gods to worship (pele, moore etc). Going to Church every 3pm on Saturday etc.

Beliefs form a big part of everyone's life, whether you are religious or not. Don't knock our beliefs just because you don't believe in them.

TiG

[Stewart]

Can someone just exaplain to me how, if God is all powerful and can perform any task, there is no chance of anyone changing their minds in this thread?

Isn't there a chance one of us heretics \ non-believers will suddenly throw down our copies of 'A Brief History of Time', burn our Turbans, cast aside our Koran, and embrace the endless love of the Lord, Jesus Christ?

I thought that happened...

[TiG]

No-one here is trying to convert you Vaul, I don't believe that it is my place to judge your beliefs. But i will stand up for my own and at least try to make people aware that closed minds are on the whole bad.

Better for everyone to make their own mind up. Than be lead/convinced by others.

TiG

[daverobev]

I mostly agree with Vaul in his view. However, the problem is, I think this view will lead to the end of Humanity (ok maybe not quite so dramatic but...bear with me)..

*Edit* but you can say "hogwash" to just about anything...the Lottery? Stupid tax, but people choose to do it...Football? 22 men kicking a leather ball around some grass? Get paid HOW MUCH for that? You're all mugs for supporting them! But people choose to do it...not believing in something doesn't invalidate other people's beliefs Vaul, its not fair to be so dismissive in such a manner...people still watch Neighbours for goodness sake!! *End Edit*

I was brought up predominantly christian, and I do honestly believe it instilled a good sense of right and wrong (with respect to other people) in me. And I really do worry - because, while the fact that people are getting LESS religion at school and at home is "a good thing", it is also "a bad thing" because they are getting no moral sense either.

So, while I personally don't believe in God, I think we are losing a lot of our society because of it (thats not saying you can't be good if you aren't religious, rather that it appears you are less likely to be)...all anyone cares about is cash. For themselves.

So yeah science is cool...we aren't really "getting anywhere" with it. People are living longer and in less pain, that is good. Is the world a better place? Lately? Hmm...not sure, hard to say, but...probably not. If we can become a hell of a lot more energy efficient and live in peace and quiet without killing the world this would be good (yeah I'm a vegetarian...maybe I should join Greenpeace, I don't know). We find antibiotics to help people, then the germs get better and we're back at square 1.

So...what is the meaning of life? Be happy, and don't be an arse? Quite possibly...is there any romance in that, anything other than 50 years of working? We can go to concerts and on holiday...but are we better off....who knows...ah I'm depressed.

[Mike Fishcake]

TBH, I'm not really sure there's any point in posting here as there's no way anyone will change their belief system on the basis of a thread discussion on a techy forum about God, but I might as well throw in my 2p.

Agreed.

I'm an atheist, because I dislike people telling me what to believe. However...

In my opinion, the people lecturing me not to believe in a god and sneering at those that do, are just as bad (if not worse) than those that stand on a street corner and preach His Word at people that don't want to know.

Let people believe what they want to believe as long as it doesn't interfere with others. You only ever hear about the extremists causing the problems, never mind the millions of peaceful Christians and Muslims that go about their every day business quietly.

[Stewart]

I mostly agree with Vaul in his view.

Aha! Vaul 1, Jesus 0, baby. Suck it down Jesus! One nil to mortal boy.

However, the problem is, I think this view will lead to the end of Humanity

Ah. That is a snag, I will admit.

I've won nothing more than a Pyrrhic victory, have I not? He who laughs last, laughs loudest.

Vaul 1, Jesus 2.

EDIT (By Jesus): Pwned.

[Grey M@a]

Vaul, you just saved me an essay to right, I am with you on this one. Bunch of mumbo jumbo, there is no hell, no heaven, no god no devil.

[Stewart]

Vaul, you just saved me an essay to right, I am with you on this one. Bunch of mumbo jumbo, there is no hell, no heaven, no god no devil.

Write, mate. Not taking English, are you?

But yeah, I think I am. Fair play, Hell could be Leeds and the Devil could be John Lesley, but push comes to shove, I'm right.

You are born, you then proceed to 'be happy and don't be an arse', you have kids, you die. Your kids live on, and thats the reason for being.

Its the fact that people can't accept that, that leads to this nonsense. Mixed with a fear of death and the unknown.

[TiG]

"i'm right" just doesn't suit a moderator, at least not on this kind of thread

TiG

[Kezzer]

prove it...

TiG

That was your response to "it's fake". Prove it exists then

In fact, there's a minimal amount of conceivable evidence that any kind of spiritual realm exists yet people are always still telling everyone else "prove it doesn't exist". That's a silly comeback imo

[Elmo]

I dont believe in god, or jesus. I'm not a hindu, or muslim. I'm neither a jew nor a buddhist. I *DO* believe in the PRICIPLES of the pagan religion, i believe that there's more than one "higher spirit" or "god/goddess", afterall, 1 cannot overlook every little thing... something is responsible for life and everything around us, we just havent found out what yet.

I find it difficult to believe in a religion such as christianity due to the lack of evidence to prove these things happened. We have a lot of hard evidence of a lot of things that happened 2000+ years ago, why is there none (other than a book that's been rewritten many MANY times, oh yes, and word of mouth - chinese whispers comes to mind) to prove that any of the stuff in the bible really happened?

I suppose i guess jesus may have lived at some point, no one can really dispute that likelihood, however, i think it was some kind of massive haluccination or something. People dont just rise from the dead... they dont, it hasnt happened since then, and there's no (here comes that word again) evidence to say it is POSSIBLE.

Then there's the debate of heaven and hell. Ok, no one knows what happens when we die, other than just that, we die. I personally, would like to believe that although our bodies die, our spirit lives on. I'm not sure tho, i like to have evidence to prove things (had you guessed?) and although i haven't seen any hard evidence, this is what i'd like to believe happens, although it probably doesnt. Anyway, i'd like to think our spirit lives on and it gets...recycled almost, kinda like karma... but more random. Our spirits just move into another body being born.

Heaven and hell just seem so final... what happens after heaven or hell? you live happily ever after? till when? surely heaven and hell would need to expand to take the ever growing population? especially when no one seems to be leaving...

[Kezzer]

And just to add, i'm currently writing an article to dis-prove the existence of god. Why you may ask? Because religion has a lot to do with 2000 years ago. In that time, certain ways were looked upon as "due to gods hand" because there was no other explanation. For example, the bible says adam and eve were cast out of the garden of eden. If you read it, they were actually hogging all the food so packs of wolves (perhaps) chased them out.

[Stewart]

"i'm right" just doesn't suit a moderator, at least not on this kind of thread

TiG

Yeah, like I have a master plan to change someones post from 'I love Jesus' to 'I love... Jihad!'

Anyway, I believe you should have the right to be religious, you should just never use that right, because its obviously something people made up back in the day, to make sense of the world around them, and control the general populace. 'Behave, oik, or burn in Hell'.