Heaven: Not so good??

[BEANFro Elite]

Now, if you think for a minute and remember what you learnt in RE, they all told us that heaven is a wonderful place where everything you want is there and is a place reserved only for good people...how can this work??

Ok heres what I'm on about, say for example, you have a g/f whom you love dearly but she is a murderer, she had ruthlessly killed douzens of people and showed no remorse, you still love her as its the sort of unconditional love thing.

So you're g/f gets convicted and is sentenced to death, she is executed, but because shes pure evil she goes to hell right??

But say that YOU are a very good person, you go to church every Sunday, you give money to charity you even give shelter to homeless people but you're killed in a tragic car accident.

Because you're such a good person, you'd go to heaven right??

But this is where the pickle is, because heaven has everything you can ever want etc etc and is only for good people. What if all wanted was to be with your g/f who is in hell?? Seems kind of mean to me to keep the two separated don't you think??

[nichomach]

Personally, I think Hell's reserved for double posters...

[TiG]

BeanFro - simple fact is no-one knows. Its not a question you can answer definitively as its a matter of faith.

Personally i'd find it difficult to love anyone that committed dozens of murders

TiG

[Rcb]

This is the (one of the many) reason why it is fake

[TiG]

prove it...

TiG

[Stewart]

Anyone still hanging on to this force-fed, childish mush, about Gods, monsters, Heaven, Hell, Virgin Births and the like, please, let it go.

Its 2005. We have probes on Titan, we have had a man walking on the moon for decades, we have gene research, DNA research, all areas of technology are progressing faster than at anytime before.

And yet, a large amount of people on the Earth have still not progressed from mindless blind faith in a God you cannot see, cannot hear, cannot smell, cannot touch, have no proof of existence, and who's case for being the creator of our species seems to rest on the single claim - it says so in this book.

Forgive me if I feel I need something more before I fall to the ground and worship at his alter.

Throw in a few Holy Wars, systematic, organised sexual abuse of children, extremist Muslim terrorists, etc, etc, and personally, you can take all the major religions, all their Gods, all their daemons, angels, virgin births, forbidden foods, and other assorted self-imposed baseless tripe, and banish it to the darkest corner of... well, some place with a really dark corner.

It hold us back, teaches us to judge each other, convert each other, kill each other, torture each other, and everything else... all in the name of a randomly chosen 'I'm right, everyone else is wrong' interpretation of a book, of course.

Dear me, what a simple species we are. All you need to pull the wool over our eyes is a mildly well written story book, with the odd historical fact thrown in, a few fairy tales about a talking snake, and some quite frankly pathetic '... and the moral of this story is, boys and girls...' type moments, and you have a truly laughable case for the way things 'really are'.

People of the earth, I say to you - put down your bible, pick up your books on history, science and evolution. Stop worshiping Ragnok, Lord of the Sea, and telling us about people rising from the dead, and the like, and who knows? You might even not feel the urge to turn a blind eye to the sexual abuse of children \ blow yourself up in a cafe \ Murder workers at an abortion clinic, etc. (Delete the horrors not currently being committed by your own religious brothers and sisters at the moment, as appropriate.)

It’s all a bit silly really, all this Gods and Ghouls, nonsense. Kids come to terms with the fact that there is no Santa Claus after all... how long does it take to come to terms with the fact that when you die, you are put in a box in the ground and rot?

Is it nice? Nope. But believe me, I can say 100%, it’s where every atheist, every Christian, and everyone else is going to end up. All of us, religious and non-religious, rotting in a cold, dark box.

Now, can you see why all this heaven stuff appeals to so many people? All you need is a few billion gullible folk and a story which contains the words ‘rat-a-tat-tat’ to sing at Christmas, and you’ve got yourself an alternative to death, baby.

The only truly tragic thing is, I won’t be able to say, I told you so.

[Kaine (AoD)]

prove it...

TiG

My whole view on heaven and hell is that non exist, TBH im only 19 and havnt looked in to all this religion as of yet but from what i read hear and there and think from time to time.. there cant be any of them.. wouldnt heaven have been created as in image of everything good which can be gained by living a good life and worshiping God, but doesnt that seem like someone could have just wrote this as a false hope.. for something to look forward to in the 'After life'

On the other hand you got Hell which is a place of pure evil for people that didnt follow these 'rules' of leading a good life.. sooo they are banished to Hell for ever.. but again couldnt someone have just writen that to keep people in order.. something to scare people in to leading this good life to go to a 'better' place

[Edit] (deleted line due to confusing myself)

[TiG]

For all your speech Vaul, it still proves nothing

I believe in "GOD" for the simple reason of we don't know even a fraction of 1% of what is possible yet.

What makes your belief in the universe any more valid than mine?. Your belief is you'll just stop. Its still religion. Its what you chose to believe.

Wars occur when beliefs differ, not religion

Your whole arguement of science is truely appaling tho, as science relies on proof, A lack of proof doesn't mean its not there. Dark Matter is thought to exist, yet it can't be proved. Does that mean it doesn't exist?. No, have we found the tools or way to describe or interact with this matter. Certainly not...

TiG

[Stewart]

Science does not spout forth unfounded bollocks, and claim it is the word of a big man in the sky with magic powers, who's son was born to a virgin in a stable, and who after feeding the 5000 and parting the sea, was killed and came back to life.

And until it does, I will choose science in a heartbeat over religion.

Now, repeat that back to me. I want to make sure you understand.

EDIT - And yes, I am just in a very bad mood.

[5lab]

tbh, i believe science over religion, but i dont think science is the whole truth. 300 years ago *everyone* thought that the world was created by god, now we laugh at them. what if, in 300 years, our descendants look back and laugh at us for our 'big bang' stuff..?

its worth baring in mind, anwyays

[Stewart]

The Big Bang is a bit dodgy, yes. 'Well, there was nothing there, right, then... there was!'

Yeah, its not great, but its not quite 'and the Lord sayeth unto Jesus, and Jesus sayeth unto some other bloke'.

Still the best option for most of us though.

[tiggerai]

This is always a very difficult subject to discuss, as everyone has their own ideas.

I believe that people should be able to believe what they want to, as long as they don't impose their beliefs on me.

[TiG]

Dark Matter seems sensible to you?. It accounts for 90% of the universes mass?.

The unified string theory has to use 14 dimensions to calculate stuff?.

You'll be telling me scientists didn't say the earth was flat next and you are the centre of the universe

historical accounts including the bible always have bias. It was written by humans, it doesn't mean there are not actual events that happened.

You can't see its not a matter of science or relgion?, neither are absolute, both are made up of human's and as a species we are no way close to perfect.

Science is not infallable. NASA showed the first pictures from Mars with a blue sky.... We still teach laws of physics to school kids that are fundementally wrong now. A completely blinkered view of belief in science is as wrong as a blinkered view of religion.

Keep an open mind to things is much better way to be in my opinion.

TiG

[tiggerai]

Keep an open mind to things is much better way to be in my opinion.

THAT is my "religion"

Treat others as you would want to be treated, be nice and keep an open mind.

[Stewart]

I worship Odin.

And what you are saying is, if I worshiped a bottle of Coke called Susan, as it’s my system of belief, it should be given as much respect as the major religions and science?

Are all Gods and the right to worship them equally protected in your opinion?

Are Allah and Ra equal?

What about tribes that worship bizarre Gods, worshiped only by a few dozen people... as worthy a cause as the study of science to better ourselves? Or would we all be better off shouting 'Praise the Lord' whilst dancing naked around a Silver Birch, in a pair of yellow swimming goggles, sacrificing a hedgehog with a bottle opener, to Rinzor, Lord of the Tall Trees?

Religion holds us back and causes us to look for people in the sky and places of punishment and reward to be sent to after death. It’s not needed for us to progress as a species, it holds us back by thousands of years, and has a death toll greater than that of any other single concept, act or disaster, and is directly responsible for more misery and suffering than anything else ever conceived in human history, and is, in its organized form, by far and away the greatest evil we have inflicted upon ourselves in the entire span of human exsistence.

Apart from that, its fine.

[BEANFro Elite]

"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded"

In this day in age nothing is what it seems at first...

As for religion...I spit on it, it has given unpleasant types an excuse for war and is now really showing its age, its about time ALL religions were abolished from our modern society...

I personally am a spirituallist, as this seems the most logical way forward...