Christians - A Penny For Your Thoughts.

[Stewart]

is ALL the Word of God. How one chooses to INTERPRET it, though, is a different matter.

1) look at historical context
2) look at the world around you
3) discuss with learned people
4) look at scriptural context
5) debate
6) the Holy Spirit within

7) Die.
8) Kick Yourself.

[kalniel]

Also why are the Science minded so strong on us having to prove it, when they've spent years and still can't disprove it?

*bangs head against wall* I've spent half this thread pleading with people not to make preconceptions about Christians, do I now have to do it on behalf of scientists as well??

So yeah, I'm a Christian, and a scientist

Scientific observations increase my beliefs that God exists, not decrease them. Science and faith are perfectly compatible IMHO.

in my case scientific evidence does not oppose my belief.

And I'm quite happy to explain more of how the world around us works

Which as a scientist who does not believe in creationism I know isn't true.

Let me re-iterate. I am a scientist and a Christian

But that does not mean that one can't understand Science scientifically and God religiously

etc etc.

So please, just as Christians here are asking non-christians not to label them as literal creationists, I'm asking you as a scientist not to label science-minded people as having to prove it.

[G4Z]

0a) Assume everything you read or are told by your religious organisation is written without agenda.

0b) Assume anything in a scripture must be true, and any glaring problems with rational/logical/reasonable thought must be simply down to interpretation and not merely cobblers.

0c) Assume those voices you hear in your hear are in fact god and you are not mental.

[Zak33]

Well those three are interesting because they all share the same historical roots. Christianity takes Judaism and says 'look, that was how it used to be, but the person you were waiting for has arrived' Judaism says 'nah, you had a prophet but he wasn't who we were waiting for, we're still waiting' and Islam says 'the person you were waiting for sort of arrived but he's just a prophet and we've got another prophet (p.b.u.h.) who's more important' (or something like that, I'm not too up on Islam).

As for who's right.. well you can't really prove it historically - the historical facts pretty much back up the things that they all have in common, not the differences. It becomes a question of opinion, IMO, and your own judgement about whether you believe a) what Jesus said is true, b) what Mohammed (p.b.u.h.) said is true. If you believe neither is true but believe the earlier writing, then Judaism is the way for you. Personally, what Jesus said seems to fit most with what I understand about the writings before him. So for me I believe him the most.

Well worded. And Josh, thank you for your kind offer of a pm ref this whole thing, though I shall politely say No Ta.

I'd like to expain something myself. When I walk through the snow, on top of the Peak District, or the Yorkshire moors, the wind howling, and my lass walking beside me, the world's a great place. But at no time have i ever wondered "how did HE decide it should look like this?" I see the glaciers from my schooling, in history, grinding through the landscape and retreating.

And because of that, because I am holding one of the fossils that I have personally dug out of the cliffs on the South Coast of England, along the Jurrassic coastal cliffs from Lyme Regis to Chideock, at no point do I ever wonder "were they put there to trick us, by some greater being, because the earth is only 6000 years old". I simply cant see it.

And worst.........worst of all by miles, is that I have often wondered if I should visit an Alpha course, to see whats going on. But I won't be going for the right reason. And I dont want to be looked at as a trouble maker, or a disbeliever who went to cause a fuss and argue.
It is because I feel my respect for the church would become undermined, and my respect for those people looking for belief, faith and love from Him, would drop off my radar as sensible, and would become, in my mind, less sensible and more...missguided. My grandfather, a great man in my eyes, got religion when my Gran died of cancer. He loved the church, so I try yo not knock it, because I loved and respected him, and if he wanted to believe, I was happy for him.

But she did die, of cancer, and had he been a religious man earlier, she'd still have died.

He died, on his own, in his house, of a massive heart attack, many years ago, and was found by my young sister, 17 at the time, and she suffered too from that.

I'm not saying God would stop death and shocks like that, if he existed. But I AM saying we carry on regardless, and if we all stopped praying, the entire worl stopped believing, I think life would carry on as before.

That's what I think. We'd manage fine.

[Zak33]

by the way....Ive learned some good stuff in this thread, so I thank you all for the input, cos it's damn good.

Keep it nice tho

[Kezzer]

7) Die.
8) Kick Yourself.

Keep it nice tho

Maybe you should be telling the hexus mods that

[muddyfox470]

oh-er this sounds fun, give me a few days to read through the thread

ian

[nichomach]

Maybe you should be telling the hexus mods that

We're Christians; having some harsh words directed at us on a web forum isn't really that much? "Bless those who curse you, and pray for those who despitefully use you." If that's the level at which he chooses to function, perhaps leave him to it?

[Alex]

I have a simple question for the religious ones. A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

Can God make an unliftable rock ?

Being a semi-religious type, I think I can answer this one.

No.

The religious view is that God is not omnipotent. I think the simplest way of looking at it is that God cannot break the laws of logic. How could God ever create anything bigger/better/faster/stronger than Himself? How could He create another God, or make 1+1=5?

The Christian view is that God is able to break any natural law, should He so desire, but that He cannot do anything either against the laws of logic, or against His own character.

[fuddam]

And worst.........worst of all by miles, is that I have often wondered if I should visit an Alpha course, to see whats going on. But I won't be going for the right reason. And I dont want to be looked at as a trouble maker, or a disbeliever who went to cause a fuss and argue.

not sure what one could limit as the right reason. The point of Alpha is NOT to preach, or to force feed, but to allow people to involve themselves in a rational look at Christianity, and decide if there is any merit in it.

FWIW, one of the principle features is that the hosts of an alpha group do NOT give answers, but simply facilitate discussion between the attendees, who presumably are all curious / interested / not committed to Christianity.

my brother is attending one at the moment, at HTB, and was initially surprised at the lack of simple answers / Q & A.

[JPreston]

.. The point of Alpha is NOT to preach, or to force feed, but to allow people to involve themselves in a rational look at Christianity...

OK...so speaking in tongues is definitely not part of schedule? Hhhmmmmmm?

[fuddam]

The Christian view is that God is able to break any natural law, should He so desire, but that He cannot do anything either against the laws of logic, or against His own character.

interesting question. mebbe the point is not whether he COULD not, but rather that he chooses not? Esp in relation to doing something against his character, eg to sin. Hmmmm.

Is kinda complex since have to consider that Christ is God and yet was man and thus open to temptation as much as any human. He chose not to sin, and he is God.

[fuddam]

0a) Assume everything you read or are told by your religious organisation is written without agenda.

nope, see original points. Note the words 'debate', 'discussion' etc? good. Also note there is a difference between scripture (divine) and the church (human) - the latter being very open to fallibility

0b) Assume anything in a scripture must be true, and any glaring problems with rational/logical/reasonable thought must be simply down to interpretation and not merely cobblers.

if scripture is divine, of course. And the Bible is. yep, must agree with you on that.

0c) Assume those voices you hear in your hear are in fact god and you are not mental.

assume? nope. Know? yep. And there is no way forward on this point, since one cannot explain the concept of colour to someone who is blind (no offence implied or intended)

[fuddam]

OK...so speaking in tongues is definitely not part of schedule? Hhhmmmmmm?

an alpha course follows the following format:

1) a video presentation of course content, eg Christian doctrine, principles, history

2) followed by a discussion of said material by the attendees. NOT by the hosts - they just keep things civil / provide the opportunity for the discussion etc.

is that any more force feeding than this forum? I think not. I would say it is less, since the Christian hosts are facilitators rather than actively involved in the discussion.

speaking in tongues is a natural occurrence for many Christians. It is NEVER expected of / obliged on the course attendees.

[JPreston]

Fuddam? Care to answer my question?

Ah shala dacka dacka oom?

I'm not sure speaking in tongues is a rational part of mainstream christianity - but let's ask the very model of a positive, helpful, harmless, good christian:

The Alpha course then takes them through the 'experience' of receiving the Holy Spirit. Now during this time - on the Saturday evening - Gumbel prays for the Holy Spirit to come upon them.

Now how do they know that they have received the Holy Spirit? Well, one of the evidences is that they speak in tongues.

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=alpha3

Hmm. Seems they do. I'm not picking on Ian (google "alpha course speak in tongues" and that's the first page) but actually I'm pleasantly surprised by some of the comments he makes (same page, my bold):

If you pray in tongues your understanding is empty, it is unfruitful, but that is not the way you should pray, that is not the way in which you should worship. Your understanding, your mind should be active. This is a terrible aspect of the Charismatic and Toronto-style meetings. People are told to empty their minds, but God never tells Christians to empty their mind. They must be alert, aware, conscious of what they are doing.

That's not so bad really, is it?

How do some of you feel, knowing that your beliefs make Ian Paisley look moderate in comparison?



EDIT: seems we cross-posted. But, you haven't really been truthful with your answer...speaking in tongues is a scheduled part of saturday night, OK so noone will get crucified if they want to sit it out, but it is most certainly encouraged, isn't it?

[fuddam]

7) Die.
8) Kick Yourself.

sounds like you're admitting life after death. That IS progress!