Christians - A Penny For Your Thoughts.

[Akira]

I know, let's all give each other a huge metaphysical hug and agree that we are, indeed, all going to heaven.... HOORAY!!

[Kezzer]

A baby has no concept of evil, good, love, hate, or very much at all really.

You're correct, I wouldn't have used that analogy that's for sure.

so while you may think you are one of the people who has seen the light, then rest of us are not rejecting God, we just realise that the entire thing is a sham, so loving or not loving him is of no concern.

So you claim you're right then? That it's all a sham? How do you know that? That's your belief, and your belief is backed by faith, and as previously mentioned (we're reiterating here) if faith were provable, then the very meaning of the term wouldn't be faith.

[Akira]

Pants, my group hugging idea's failed - I was hoping you'd all hail me as the messiah, I've got the sandals and everything

[Kezzer]

Pants, my group hugging idea's failed - I was hoping you'd all hail me as the messiah, I've got the sandals and everything

Nike Air Jerusalem's? I want a pair.

[Akira]

Nike Air Jerusalem's? I want a pair.

Lol, the very same, aimed at the messianic galilaean in all of us

[nichomach]

WWMJD...?

[Akira]

Lmao

That's very good - cheered my Monday morning up no end!!

[MadduckUK]

2) God can turn bad things to good outcomes for those who love and believe in Him, so awesome is His grace. I can testify to that happening many many times in my own life.

i would love to hear some examples. i bet there very, very interesting

[Akira]

I have to say that, occasionally, I've considered myself extremely lucky.

If I was a christian no doubt I'd be putting this down to the Grace of God but as a non-believer I simply put it down to another semi-divine creation - Lady Luck.

Co-incidence also tends to make folks either thank or curse whichever godhead they worship...

Hmmm, so many interpretations and ideas - this is the kind of discussion everybody needs to be huddled round a big table in a pub for

[TeePee]

His actions don't typically match those which we associate as those of Christians, namely: gentleness, compassion, kindness, humility, patience, love and joy.

But it's not my place to judge whether he is a Christian or not - that's between God and him alone. I will however say that if he was Christian I certainly don't agree with his interpretation of things, and once more point you to the previous posts about judging Christians based on the actions of a minority. Not that that's going to help much because it seems most of what we say on this thread is ignored and the same questions get asked again and again regardless of whether they were addressed previously

Those are admirable traits, and may be things which YOU associate with christians. They may be things you associate with YOUR interpretation of christianity. But as an outsider looking at the history of christianity, these aren't traits that would be historically associated with the religion.
As a christian, you have a biased view of the religion. Historically people have followed very different interpretations. You can say they are wrong and that you are right, but all you are doing is showing your dogmatic belief.
From a moral standpoint, your interpretation of christianity is much better. But christians in the past, from hitler to the crusades, believed they were following scripture and that their interpretation was the correct one.
Even today, there are different interpretations and they aren't all minority groups. The traits you mentioned aren't those I would associate with the evangelical church in the US, which is 30 million strong.

[nichomach]

But christians in the past, from hitler to the crusades, believed they were following scripture and that their interpretation was the correct one.
Even today, there are different interpretations and they aren't all minority groups. The traits you mentioned aren't those I would associate with the evangelical church in the US, which is 30 million strong.

Latter point first; there are 1.1 billion Roman Catholics. There are 73 million members of the Anglican Communion. The Evangelical church in the US is very much a minority of Christians.

As far as Hitler is concerned, we've already dealt with his supposed "Christianity" (and I've cited specific examples of steps that he took to suppress the church or minimise its influence), and as far as the Crusades are concerned, you don't think they'd have found some other reason for the massive grab of land and resources that the Crusades were really about? Or as I said earlier:

It appears therefore that we are being asked to apply two different sets of standards here; where a society allows or supports religion, we're asked to accept that as its key defining characteristic, and where the members of that society do something evil it must be because of their religion. However, where a society is avowedly and dedicatedly atheist we are asked to effectively discount that as a defining characteristic, and attribute their evil actions to something else. I'm actually OK with the latter, since as noted above atheism does not in and of itself imply a particular moral code; my issue is with the former - the assumption that the evil acts of people who are nominal members of a particular faith are always attributable to that faith, and not to the same secular considerations that would drive, say, a Stalin to the same acts.

If it weren't "God", it'd be "manifest destiny", "historical imperative", "liberation of the oppressed people" or some other spurious justification.

[Akira]

I would argue that in the past the 'message' of Christianity has been hijacked at times by the Powers that Be (who also have at times been unscrupulous popes). One example of this is the apprehension and burning of the Knights Templar members that happened because a greedy king and corrupt pope wanted to get there hands on the wealth of the order.

Another more infamous example is the Inquisition.

It would seem that Christianity started off as a bit of a do-gooder sect which then, after the fall of the Roman Empire, turned into a bit of a monster, by the late middle ages seems to epitomize the very evil it's supposedly trying to combat. And now, of course, many Christian groups are returning to the happy-clappy mode since the church no longer wields any real global power (except for the End of Timers in the states of course).

As you suggest TeePee both the Old and New Testaments provide some very useful tips for leading a good life but in the hands of many humans they seem to have been kind of misrepresented...

A guy that used to work with us told us all, at every available opportunity, that we're going straight to hell... this is the kind of extreme-screw-you perspective that causes all the trouble.

The person in question was later fired for assaulting an 11 year old boy... don't figure

*Posted this after Nicomach's, sorry for any repitition.

[Splash]

I'll be honest and say I've only skim-read the last couple of pages of this thread but it seems to me you could reasonably substitute "Christian" for any other religion. Or am I wrong?

[Kezzer]

I'll be honest and say I've only skim-read the last couple of pages of this thread but it seems to me you could reasonably substitute "Christian" for any other religion. Or am I wrong?

Nope, compare Judaism to Christianity for example. It's living between the old and new covenant and you can't get to God unless you go through Jesus, and Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God therefore it wouldn't work. Also, the practices are completely different. Jews spend ages earning forgiveness whereas Christians must truly repent in order to gain their forgiveness.

[Splash]

Apologies Kezzer, my point wasn't intended as a flame. I personally have no issue with any one person's beliefs so long as they cause no harm to others. I'm also not a subscriber to any particular belief system, but I do like the idea of some form of divine being. I'm now reading the thread from the beginning and see that it's drifted somewhat from the original post.

My point is that crazy people sometimes do crazy things in the name of religion, and that it's easy to blame the religion for that rather than look for a cause of the person's behaviour. Granted this can sometimes be seen as the religion, but often it's easiest to apply the "religious nutter" tag.

[Akira]

removed by me