Christians - A Penny For Your Thoughts.

[TeePee]

I can prove gravity exists very easily.

Hold something out in front of you. Let it go. It falls. That's proof of the fact of gravity right there.


Or did you want me to prove Newton's 'theory of gravity'? Or maybe Einstein's Theory of Gravitation?

See, this is where science differs from religion since a theory is subject to modification or rejection in the face of evidence, to be replaced with better theories. Science is a method for finding out about the universe, and not a doctrine which claims exactly what our universe is.

[G4Z]

Bazzlad, total mis-understanding of science there, I thought we already established that you cannot prove anything only find evidence to support your theory/model. If experimental evidence provides data contrary to your theory/model then the model has to be changed to explain it or it needs to be scrapped and replaced with a model that fits with the data better and can make predictions so that it can then be tested. Saying god did it is never an option in science because you cannot test it. Maybe you can test it, I just prayed for an 8 pack of beer to appear in my fridge and for J Prestons mobo, if the god hypothesis is correct then I can expect to be rather drunk in a couple of hours time.

Go read up on the scientific method before you ask any more daft questions.

Also, there is a huge amount of evidence gravity exists and that more mass = more gravity. The model to explain gravity is somewhat lacking and I think the current 'best theory' involves particles called gravitons however these have never been observed but that does not mean somebody won't think up a test for it or come up with an E=MC2 idea. The fact is, all the easy questions have been answered and it may take many years or there may never be a unified theory of everything, however that does not mean we won't. It also doesn't mean you should invoke a big man in the sky idea to explain things, if we did not have people prepared to work on these hard questions we would probably still be living in huts.

I would direct you to the things we do know and have observed like 'splitting the atom' for one mushroom cloud shaped example. in the early 1900's this would have seemed like an impossible idea, but 40 years later somebody did it. The fact that historicaly we have had many revolutions that have transformed our understanding of the universe gives me confidence that it will happen many more times.

[kalniel]

oh, btw, MOST of the Christians I know do speak in tongues, ie it is very common in a church that practices spiritual gifts. A lot of more staid / rigid churches claim the spiritual gifts are of the past, and have no place today. Again, they are seriously without scriptural foundation. As always, one has to come back to scripture, not conjecture from Joe Blogs.

I take exception to that - I don't know of *any* church that has said spiritual gifts are of the past or have no place.

At the same time, I know a lot of churches which over-emphasise this *one* gift, when in fact there are a whole whole of gifts which are equally important and in a lot of cases more useful.

[kalniel]

I can prove gravity exists very easily.

Hold something out in front of you. Let it go. It falls. That's proof of the fact of gravity right there.

That's a dangerous game. You can't prove it will do the next time you let go, except by a cyclical induction* arguement

*But induction 'belief' was good enough for Hume and it's good enough for me.

[TeePee]

Nope. It's proof that in the instant the object falls, there is a force acting on it.

Predicting that it will occur in the future would require a theory.

[kalniel]

Nope. It's proof that in the instant the object falls, there is a force acting on it.

Predicting that it will occur in the future would require a theory.

Then it's not a very great proof - it doesn't distinguish between any number of possibilities - for example that the floor and room etc are actually rising up to meet the apple

[G4Z]

By the way, that 8 pack never appeared.

Therefore I submit this as data that supports the hypothesis that God does not exist. I have second test later that involves asking for 5 fit women to show up my door barely dressed.

Will keep you posted.

[TeePee]

Sure it's a good proof. It happened.

The reasons for the object/floor coming together are for the theory. A 'Floor rising' theory of gravity could be investigated, tested, and a reasoned argument against it could be developed.

What you can't do is say 'The supernatural made it happen'.

[JPreston]

'Intelligent Falling'?

[fuddam]

I take exception to that - I don't know of *any* church that has said spiritual gifts are of the past or have no place.

your experience appreciated, but I find it pretty common. Usually phrased in the form: "miracles? they don't happen nowadays / were part of the early church"

I know a lot of churches where prophetic words are not expected or encouraged, or where people are not encouraged to lay hands on the sick to heal them there and then. These church members do believe Christ can heal, and pray accordingly, but do not expect His power to manifest directly through the members. Can often ascertain where a partic church is coming from by asking one of its members what his / her spiritual gifts are.



Smith Wigglesworth gave a famous prophecy along the lines of the decline of the orthodox church in the UK, but the rise of churches of "Word & Spirit". Found here http://www.thewayofthespirit.com/abo...glesworth.aspx

He was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay cool. God used him to raise more than a few people from the dead

[kalniel]

What you can't do is say 'The supernatural made it happen'.

As a result of that experiment? Of course. That's what I've been argueing

[kalniel]

your experience appreciated, but I find it pretty common. Usually phrased in the form: "miracles? they don't happen nowadays / were part of the early church"

There's more to spiritual gifts than just 'miracles'. Wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, prophecy, discernment, tongues, intepretation, teaching, even administration! are all gifts and to find a church with not one of them would be pretty impressive (I mean, have you ever seen a chuch with no teaching or admin? ) I've been to some very conservative churches, and while you might not see gifts in action in public, they very much were behind the scenes. That does not make them any less valid just because they're not as visible.

[simonfitba]

Fundamentalist Christians I can't take, or fundamentalist anyone for that matter. Anyone who twists ideas of love and peace to suit their own ends deserves a slap... on both cheeks.

Slightly off topic now...

I'm a scientist at heart and realise that the Big Bang theory is a pretty good bet for the creation of the universe.

But what about before that when there was nothing? How can you get the universe from nothing? Is that proof of God?

Maybe I should stay off the drugs.

[fuddam]

There's more to spiritual gifts than just 'miracles'. Wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, prophecy, discernment, tongues, intepretation, teaching, even administration! are all gifts and to find a church with not one of them would be pretty impressive (I mean, have you ever seen a chuch with no teaching or admin? ) I've been to some very conservative churches, and while you might not see gifts in action in public, they very much were behind the scenes. That does not make them any less valid just because they're not as visible.

agreed

[TeePee]

I'm a scientist at heart and realise that the Big Bang theory is a pretty good bet for the creation of the universe.

But what about before that when there was nothing? How can you get the universe from nothing? Is that proof of God?

I'm no expert on this stuff. My arguement is simply that any scientific theory is better than a supernatural one, but my understanding is that in the theory, the 'Big Bang' marks not just the beginning of the universe but the beginning of time. As such the concept of 'before' is meaningless.

[ajbrun]

I'd like the theists to tell us who created god. Their only answer can be "we don't know". This is all the atheists are saying with the universe. There are something we still don't know about how the universe work, and some things we may never know. This doesn't mean we should say that the supernatural caused everything when there's no actual physical proof for it, except peoples beliefs.