Never mind fox hunting.....

[floppybootstomp]

I'd only want Fox Hunting banned on grounds of cruelty. The fact that it would get right up the nose of some arrogant Shire rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish would just be a bonus.

Odd point you have, about Cats causing cruelty.

In the wild, animals act naturally, killing each other. A cats' instinct is to hunt and kill, but a domesticated Cat will only play with it's prey as it's usually well fed and pampered.

So what do we do? Make Cats extinct? Like the American Buffalo and The Dodo? Hang on, there's all kinds of animals killing each other out there, we better stop that, it might be cruel.

OK, solution - kill every single animal, that will stop the cruelty alright.

There's a huge difference between the natural order of things and purposely letting a pack of dogs loose on a wild animal to rip it to shreds.

And come to think of it, no, I've very rarely seen a stray cat myself.

[lynni]

roflmao

My stand: I hate Fox hunting, bunch of toffee noised oiks getting off on cruelty, there are more humane ways of culling a troublesome Fox population.

I like Cats. It's irresponsible owners that cause half the problem, creating too many strays.

And can you imagine what a vote loser proposing to ban Cats would be for any MP? They'd never get voted in. Political suicide. So I'm not surprised at that MP's answering letter. It was a polite way of saying 'Don't waste my time' far as I can see.

Think what u like, but stop calling us toffee nosed oiks... foxes affect peoples livelhoods and need keeping under control

I keep reading these views about other ways of controlling foxes, well what are they?

[Alex]

Well surely cats are not under the owners control? But also, think about things if humans were not involved. Would a cat still hunt mice? I think they probably would. Would dogs gang up in packs and go and tear up foxes? I doubt it. And this is surely the difference? Its the fact that people are inciting the violence that people are complaining about, not necessarily the violence itself. If people didn't go out on these big hunts, but the dogs went out of their own accord to kill these foxes would people still complain about it? No, of course they wouldnt. And this is why people complaining about fox hunting dont mind the owning of cats.

And lynni, I can see your point about their not being many better ways to go about things, and I dont really have any better suggestions as my knowledge of the debate is somewhat limited, but surely you cant claim that being hunted to death by a pack of dogs is a quick, easy, and painless way to go? And as for shooting at them, surely if you're not proficient enough with a gun to take an animal down cleanly and quickly then you shouldnt be shooting at the animal in the first place?

I dont like the idea of fox hunting because it basically is organised violence, blood sport, whatever you want to call it. You may feel this makes me a hypocrite, but then I dont see that owning a cat is any more comparable to fox hunting than hunting down and killing people because they are "pests".

[Rave]

Odd point you have, about Cats causing cruelty.

In the wild, animals act naturally, killing each other. A cats' instinct is to hunt and kill, but a domesticated Cat will only play with it's prey as it's usually well fed and pampered.
<snip>
There's a huge difference between the natural order of things and purposely letting a pack of dogs loose on a wild animal to rip it to shreds.

Well, that's just it mate....keeping a domesticated animal purely as a pet is not the natural order of things. I would have no problem at all with wild cats killing their prey and then eating them; they probably wouldn't muck about playing with them if they were actually hungry.

I'm not seriously proposing that we ban cats, and I would be perfectly happy if hunting with hounds magically ceased tomorrow- I agree it's cruel, and I think the people who do it are mainly, if not exclusively, rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbishrubbishrubbishs. Fact is though, I don't want to have poorly thought out, illogical laws which discriminate against certain sections of society, even if they are people I personally dislike.

Lynni, if your only motive for hunting with dogs is population control, then fair enough and good luck to you. I would say however that that would put you in the minority. It's impossible to say how many people actually enjoy the killing, but there must be plenty of them.

Rich :¬)

[floppybootstomp]

Think what u like, but stop calling us toffee nosed oiks... foxes affect peoples livelhoods and need keeping under control

I keep reading these views about other ways of controlling foxes, well what are they?

Us? You hunt foxes, Lynni?

Hmm. Other ways of controlling foxes? I don't know, to be perfectly honest, I'm a townie born and bred. But I expect if I Googled, I could find out.

Let me take a guess. Shooting with rifle or shotgun, a lot less time consuming than going out in a massive riding party with a pack of hounds, a lot cheaper too, I'd imagine. Baited traps, like cages? Poison? I dunno.

And what harm do foxes do exactly? All I'm aware of is they kill chickens. If so, cage the chickens, from what I know, a great majority are in battery housing anyway.

Educate this ignorant townie, maybe I'll see your point of view.

I do know this though, that Fox hunting is cruel. However you look at it, it's not natural to purposely will a pack of specifically bred dogs to tear another living being apart in a most hideous fashion.

And I suspect a great deal of The Hunt get their jollies from it then justify their action with the flimsy excuse that it's the only way to keep the Fox population under control. I don't buy that.

I have relatives who are Dairy Farmers in Somerset, near Glastonbury. They've owned their farm for generations. They have banned all Hunts from their land. They know the country way of life, so it's not a total lack of understanding that prompts people to want Fox Hunting banned.

One last thing, I grant you not all Fox Hunt members are toffee nosed oiks, but a great deal of them are. And I've never met a poor farmer.

[lynni]

[QUOTE]
And lynni, I can see your point about their not being many better ways to go about things, and I dont really have any better suggestions as my knowledge of the debate is somewhat limited, but surely you cant claim that being hunted to death by a pack of dogs is a quick, easy, and painless way to go? And as for shooting at them, surely if you're not proficient enough with a gun to take an animal down cleanly and quickly then you shouldnt be shooting at the animal in the first place? [QUOTE]



A fox doesnt stand staring down the barrel of a gun and think 'i'll stand here and let him shoot me....' given half the chance their gonna run for their lives, so if someone shoots the animal and it makes a run for it, therefore missing but shoots in another region of the body, e.g leg, shoulder. whats that got to with being proficient enough to be handling a shotgun? u cant be expected to hit bang on target everytime....

The dogs dont play around with the fox like a well fed pampered cat would with a mouse, if they catch it, it will be dead almost instantly

[lynni]

Us? You hunt foxes, Lynni?

Hmm. Other ways of controlling foxes? I don't know, to be perfectly honest, I'm a townie born and bred. But I expect if I Googled, I could find out.

Let me take a guess. Shooting with rifle or shotgun, a lot less time consuming than going out in a massive riding party with a pack of hounds, a lot cheaper too, I'd imagine. Baited traps, like cages? Poison? I dunno.

And what harm do foxes do exactly? All I'm aware of is they kill chickens. If so, cage the chickens, from what I know, a great majority are in battery housing anyway.

Educate this ignorant townie, maybe I'll see your point of view.

I do know this though, that Fox hunting is cruel. However you look at it, it's not natural to purposely will a pack of specifically bred dogs to tear another living being apart in a most hideous fashion.

And I suspect a great deal of The Hunt get their jollies from it then justify their action with the flimsy excuse that it's the only way to keep the Fox population under control. I don't buy that.

I have relatives who are Dairy Farmers in Somerset, near Glastonbury. They've owned their farm for generations. They have banned all Hunts from their land. They know the country way of life, so it's not a total lack of understanding that prompts people to want Fox Hunting banned.

One last thing, I grant you not all Fox Hunt members are toffee nosed oiks, but a great deal of them are. And I've never met a poor farmer.

I dont hunt now, cos i havent got the time or the money... i stopped riding a couple of years ago... but yes i have hunted foxes, on horseback and on foot.

How can u suggest that fox hunting is cruel, when u have listed above poison, baited cages, shooting? oh my god, i couldnt think of things that could be any crueler... i might not like foxes but i wouldnt wish them that kind of death which would likely last days. And as i have already stated a number of times in this discussion, shooting isnt the right way to go cos your not always gonna hit bullseye. Maybe if the fox goes down u could go and check you have shot correctly but if it makes a run for it and u cant see where its gone, then your buggered arent u? How long do u reckon a pack of dogs would take to kill a fox? i reckon minutes and very few as well...

Im sure people do live in the country and despise fox hunting like u have stated, but if they have never experienced the problems that foxes are responsible for then they are as ignorant in some respects as a townie arent they? Maybe they have been banned because the farmers sick of the land being trampled all over? walls damaged, hedges missing i dont know.... might not be because they despise fox hunting


The chickens we kept wernt caged, why should they be? thats cruel.... they were locked up at night in a big shed, but then we realised we was losing them during the day as well in BROAD DAYLIGHT. If the damm things were hungary then fair enough, but they were being left half mangled in the middle of the field or whatever, perhaps a few feathers missing, mainly from the chicken putting up a fight most likely. They arent just chickens they kill, they will have a go at most things, i had a pet duck when i was little that went... my sisters rabbit had a lucky escape, cos my dad saved it. Foxes are cheeky buggers, if you speak to most farmers they wholeheartedly agree with it.

How many farmers have u met that arent poor then? i would love to meet em, cos i dont know of any

[floppybootstomp]

OK, I'm learning The Farming family I mentioned objected to hunters on horseback chasing foxes for several reasons, those you have mentioned, trampled hedges and stuff, but also because they thought it was cruel, despite them not being fond of foxes. I'll have to speak to them a little more on this one, maybe get enlightened. But most of all, they objected because they didn't like the attitude of the Hunters, 'arrogant pigs' they named them. These 'hunters' acted as if it was their right to do whatever they liked, which kinda bears out my view of them.

And I still say it's cruel.

[G4Z]

well, might as well chuck in my 2p

hunting with foxes is cruel, of course it is, its blindingly obvious. you chase the animal till exhaustion and then dogs tear it apart in... what did lynni say... minutes?
heres an idea for you, there are many poisons that kill instantly, get a dart, dip in ricin or whatever, put it in a dart gun.. shoot fox. how easy is that?

also, the people who hunt tend to be toffy arseholes with influence, why do you think the house of lords blocked the last attempt to ban it? as far I can tell our farmers get shed loads in subsidies that mean 3rd world countries cant compete and basicaly keeps their farmers from earning a decent living. simpler solution, stop keeping chickens, let the africans breed them.

[Auran]

I am another person that should avoid this argument, but hey I love arguing so here's more than my twopenneth.....

To start with I shall state that I am pro foxhunting, wouldn't do it myself as I prefer stalking things, rather than chasing after them making lots of noise. My reasons for this are as follows;

1. Foxhunting is good for the foxes - FACT, you won't hear this from anyone in government or animal rights groups because they refuse to admit it. Britains foremost expert on foxes (woman who's name I can't remember at present) supports foxhunting beacause it helps maintain a healthy fox population. You might think that this is counterproductive to what the hunt is trying to acheive but it is not. Healthy adult foxes are no threat to farmers as they are more interested in chasing their natural prey rabbits. It is only old / weak foxes that have to resort to stealing chickens or lambs. These are the foxes that do get caught by the hunt as they are unable to escape, whereas healthy ones do.

2. The damage that they do is not just related to stealing a few chickens / lambs. Just prior to lambing lowland sheep are very prone to aborting due to stress. So obviously being chased round the field by a fox is going to cause this. Having walked through a field full of aborted lambs you can imagine that any sympathy that I might have had for the foxes plight was somewhat dulled by this experience.

3. Hunting with dogs is the most humane, best targetted and least collateral damage causing method of hunting foxes. Poison is highly innefective and tends to kill as many other animals as it does foxes. Also it is a slow and painfull death. Shooting isn't cost effective and again the fox normally ends up taking a long time to die. Traps are just as bad as poisoning for being indescriminate. Also for all of these methods you kill healthy foxes as well as weak. And you want healthy foxes to keep the rabbit population down.

I do agree however that it needs regulating (not self) in order to eliminate the "we can do what we want" attitude that is present in a small minority of hunts.

On the other issues raised;

Subsidies do not relate to chickens, mainly to arable farming and milk. Thus that is not an issue. A large proportion of chicken in this country did come from outside the EU from Brazil and Thailand, but these continents are rife with animal diseases. Thus with the modern consumers demand for high quality disease free products it is pointless sourcing from these areas. The same argument stand for most other meat products.

Most animal farmers in this country are poor as they have been hammered for years by the retailers, the EU, BSE and Foot and Mouth. Some of this is their own fault, but in the main they have got a very raw deal. I could go into great detail on this but think that I've ranted enough already

[Angus]

So when are we going to ban fishing???

[floppybootstomp]

Auran: That's a fairly convincing argument. Now to do some research, to verify

[Big RICHARD]

I propose fox hunting on motorbike, with machine gun. Not much is gonna get away from a machine gun! But to create a tradition, this must be done in a thong, straw hat and wellies. Then in 100 years time we can claim it's all a tradition and our RIGHT to do it, because the foxes are pests.

[Rave]

1. Foxhunting is good for the foxes - FACT, you won't hear this from anyone in government or animal rights groups because they refuse to admit it. Britains foremost expert on foxes (woman who's name I can't remember at present) supports foxhunting beacause it helps maintain a healthy fox population. You might think that this is counterproductive to what the hunt is trying to acheive but it is not. Healthy adult foxes are no threat to farmers as they are more interested in chasing their natural prey rabbits. It is only old / weak foxes that have to resort to stealing chickens or lambs. These are the foxes that do get caught by the hunt as they are unable to escape, whereas healthy ones do.

This is an appealing argument, but I'm not sure it's entirely true. For a start, if the old/weak foxes are only taking chickens/lambs because they're hungry, then why do they kill as many chickens as they can before eating one? Second, foxes are pretty smart and they're as lazy as any other animal, so if there's an easy source of food available they'll take it, rather than wasting a lot of time and energy chasing rabbits. Rabbits are hard to catch, chickens (and probably young lambs) are not. When the rabbit population got out of control in Australia, some bright spark had the idea of introducing foxes to control them. When the foxes were released they pretty much ignored the rabbits and instead laid waste to the slower moving native species, compounding the ecological damage.

Rich :¬)

[Auran]

The reason for killing lots of chicken is the "frenzied attack response".

It is actually less hassle for a healthy fox to chase Rabbits rather than chickens / lambs - Farms tend to have dogs and farmers with guns!! Do the math chase something that doesn't bite back or risk getting shot or bitten

The Australian situation had nothing to do with farming, they ate all the slow moving marsupials etc. that are easier to catch than rabbits.

[Rave]

It is actually less hassle for a healthy fox to chase Rabbits rather than chickens / lambs - Farms tend to have dogs and farmers with guns!! Do the math chase something that doesn't bite back or risk getting shot or bitten

Yeah, but until they actually get a bullet whizzing past their ear or a dog hot on their tale, they're not going to know it's dangerous are they? By the time a fox finds out that farms are hazardous it's quite likely to be too late. Until then they'll just see it as an easy source of food.

The Australian situation had nothing to do with farming, they ate all the slow moving marsupials etc. that are easier to catch than rabbits.

The point is that a fox will get it's food the easiest way possible; it doesn't matter if that's chasing rabbits, chickens, ducks, lambs or koalas or raiding bins. A fox can't tell if a particular creature is a farm animal or not, it only cares how easy it is to catch.

Rich :¬)