Never mind fox hunting.....

[G4Z]

foxes just do what their instincts tell them. lets face it your argument about tearing chickens apart is not from a standpoint of, "oh how cruel on the chickens" its about how much the farmer loses economicaly, so dont go around saying ohhh foxes are evil animals they are just doing what comes naturally. I am not against hunting foxes, I am against hunting of foxes with dogs, your argument is crap tbh. It is just as indiscriminate as any other form of hunting and there is no research that supports that argument. there are more than one ways to kill a fox, simple as that. If foxes are such a problem why are fox hunters so opposed to shooting? is it because shooting is cruler..? I am not convinced of that and I think teh simple reason is that they dont get the "thrill of the kill" from shooting. its a bloodsport and has no place in our society. we dont allow cock fighting, bager baiting or "cruelty to animals". in this case id say this was blatant cruelty to animals. you are not gonna convince me that chasing an animal down for hours untill its exhasted and then setting a pack of dogs on it to tear it apart is humane. It is'nt.

[G4Z]

tell you another thing, id like to see figures for how many foxes hunts kill in a go, cant be that many, not like they are hunting with dogs every day, I doubt it has any real effect of the fox population at all. Im gonna do some checking...

[G4Z]

In an average fox hunting season:

Foxes killed: 15,000
Humans killed (in accidents): 3
Pups and hounds killed: 6,000
Veterinary fees for horses: £15 million
Injuries to hounds: 1,000
Injuries to those on foot (including sabs): 500
Total blood spilled: 1 ton plus
Policing costs (paid by taxpayers): Over £1 million.

http://www.lancslacs.co.uk/foxhunting.htm

[lynni]

foxes just do what their instincts tell them. lets face it your argument about tearing chickens apart is not from a standpoint of, "oh how cruel on the chickens" its about how much the farmer loses economicaly, so dont go around saying ohhh foxes are evil animals they are just doing what comes naturally. I am not against hunting foxes, I am against hunting of foxes with dogs, your argument is crap tbh. It is just as indiscriminate as any other form of hunting and there is no research that supports that argument. there are more than one ways to kill a fox, simple as that. If foxes are such a problem why are fox hunters so opposed to shooting? is it because shooting is cruler..? I am not convinced of that and I think teh simple reason is that they dont get the "thrill of the kill" from shooting. its a bloodsport and has no place in our society. we dont allow cock fighting, bager baiting or "cruelty to animals". in this case id say this was blatant cruelty to animals. you are not gonna convince me that chasing an animal down for hours untill its exhasted and then setting a pack of dogs on it to tear it apart is humane. It is'nt.

Arggggggggggh this discussion just goes round and round in circles We have already mentioned other ways of killing a fox, u tell me since u seem to know so much a less painful way of killing them?

Badger baiting is downright cruel and theres no need for it, do u know exactly what goes on in badger baiting? badgers are dug from their sets and placed in a huge great big hole of which they cant get out of and then tortured to their deaths... if you leave a badger alone, it doesnt bother anyone and they dont go after anything they shouldnt. Its also cruel on the dogs as well, cos badgers have a strong bite and most likely take half a dog out if they wanted to!

When u have an arguement and a reason to believe that fox hunting is honestly cruel then come back to me and show me your reasons.... i was feeling pretty patient at the start of this discussion, cos u cant expect everyone to have the same upbringing as yourselves and some people geuninely dont know what goes on, only what they hear through the media.... but this is starting to do my head in and not because people arent agreeing with me, but because people dont actually know what happens. All im reading is 'oh its cruel....' well actually no it isnt, and if u actually really knew what went on and had experienced the reason why it was needed then u wouldnt think so either... untill then your just re-generating a pile of media s**t

[lynni]

http://www.scit.wlv.ac.uk/~jphb/cp33...fox1/pro1.html ive been doing my own research.....

[G4Z]

"The supporters of this sport rubbish the idea that the activity is cruel, saying one nip to the back of the fox's neck will kill it immediately, and that there is no evidence to suggest that foxes suffer the same effects of fear that humans do."

that is your evidence? sorry but that is very flimsy, 1 nip to the neck? you have seen it did you see the box killed with one quick bite or in minutes as you said earlier?

"Hounds do not kill foxes instantly with a 'nip to the back of the neck'. Canids do not kill in this way but rather tend to bring down their prey by a series of bites and tears to their quarry. The League has obtained post-mortem evidence from veterinary surgeons to support that this is how foxes recovered by League monitors have died."

sounds more substancial to me.

[revol68]

lets see if working class kids went around setting dogs on stray cats they'd be labelled as violent yobs but when a bunch of rich inbred idiots in red jackets do the same it is a tradition.

Lynni ur assertion that fox hunting is not a sport is ridiculous and not even put forward by its defenders likewise it the argument that shooting them is crueler is ridiculous and u have yet to provide evidence to back up this ridiculous claim.

oh yeah a good sport is to go out the night before a hunt and put piano wire between two trees on a spot the hunt will pass thru.. keeps down the vermin population.. he he he

[revol68]

oh yeah another issue is the injuries to the hounds and horses. Thing i can remenber is the countryside alliance march into london, if the social make up of that lot didn't say something i don't know what did? i mean these people were drinkin champagne... but then im just an uppity wee prole full of class hatred (and proud of it). The only reason fox hunting isn't banned is cos its enjoyed by the great and good.

and im aware that not all the countryside alliance is made up of rich landowners but the leadership is!

[Big RICHARD]

The argument against shooting seems daft. The fox doesn't know it's going to be shot at, so it won't be running. Marksmen can shoot 3 bullets into the same hole (+/- 2mm) from 25 yards without a problem, so getting a head shot on a fox isn't going to be too much of a problem. One head shot is all it takes with a 0.22 rifle. Shotguns maim and would lead to long painful deaths, but using the right kit for the job would prevent this suffering. If an animal is shot, say in the leg, then it isn't gonna run far, so the simple answer is, shoot it again! This would lead to less suffering than hunting with dogs.

Ahh. I forgot, then we'd have lots of horses and hounds to kill. OK, why don't we get on badger back and hunt the hounds with foxes? And on elephant back we could hunt the horses with lions! No, seriously, do horses have no other uses? Riding schools? Horse racing? Fox hunting is not the only entertainment to be had on horseback....

[Angus]

The argument against shooting seems daft. The fox doesn't know it's going to be shot at, so it won't be running. Marksmen can shoot 3 bullets into the same hole (+/- 2mm) from 25 yards without a problem, so getting a head shot on a fox isn't going to be too much of a problem. One head shot is all it takes with a 0.22 rifle. Shotguns maim and would lead to long painful deaths, but using the right kit for the job would prevent this suffering. If an animal is shot, say in the leg, then it isn't gonna run far, so the simple answer is, shoot it again! This would lead to less suffering than hunting with dogs.

Ahh. I forgot, then we'd have lots of horses and hounds to kill. OK, why don't we get on badger back and hunt the hounds with foxes? And on elephant back we could hunt the horses with lions! No, seriously, do horses have no other uses? Riding schools? Horse racing? Fox hunting is not the only entertainment to be had on horseback....

The fox may not be running, but it definitely isn't going to be sitting still. Marksmen may be able to shoot 3 bullets into the same hole from 25 yards, but that's a static target in plain visibility. The marksman will probably be in the prone (lying down position) and will have had time to prepare his shot. If a marksman went out hunting he wouldn't have nearly the same amount of creature comforts. The target is likley to be moving and in order to keep up, the marksman would have to run and take shots whilst standing up.

As to hunt horses being used for racing then you obviously haven't researched the issue in hand. Racing horses are very expensive and have been bred purely to race. You wouldn't put David Beckham in a cricket team would you? To be honest, I'm not convinced that having to put the horses down is a valid arguement for the pro-hunt, as I'm sure that horses used in the hunt aren't purely kept for hunting (someone may be able to correct me if I'm wrong). The key issue in this area is the number of hounds that would have to be put down. They cannot be domesticated as they are too aggressive. They cannot be trained because they have already been trained - to be aggressive.

[Big RICHARD]

I was joking about the racing bit. But, my point was that an ex-hunting horse is not useless and doesn't need to be disposed of once hunting is.

Why can't a marksman shoot the foxes lying down? Surely if he's done his research he can be waiting quietly for the foxes to appear and get a clean shot. He doesn't need to run after a particular fox, he's only reducing numbers, not eradicating the foxes....

[Angus]

I was joking about the racing bit. But, my point was that an ex-hunting horse is not useless and doesn't need to be disposed of once hunting is.

Why can't a marksman shoot the foxes lying down? Surely if he's done his research he can be waiting quietly for the foxes to appear and get a clean shot. He doesn't need to run after a particular fox, he's only reducing numbers, not eradicating the foxes....

Would you like you lie in a cold wet field waiting on the off chance that a little furry animal is going to wander across your sights?

I think that the sort of people that are into this sort of thing are not in the market for fox hunting, the expense would be far too much for our farmers (I don't really know how much a marksman would charge - but I'm guessing it's not going to be less than £200 a day) and wouldn't really be cost effective as the number of foxes killed wouldn't be that great (in comparison to the hunt which is free to the farmers - but still doesn't actually kill that many foxes).

So, what do you propose is done with the redundant hounds?

[Skii]

Its a countryside tradition going back centuries, anyone who thinks that the local hunt is the primary threat to foxes needs to take a reality check. I've lived in the countryside many years, the Local Hunt is a social event where people of all walks of life meet up and get involved, occasionally they catch something, more often than not they dont.

Reading this thread I have to question some motives behind this argument, I'm convinced some of you are more opposed to the people born into wealth and titles than the wild animal they occasionally hunt. When you live in the countryside you see a lot of dead and dying foxes, not from Hunts, but from cars, disease and fighting other wild animals, ( the vast majority being from cars )
The tiny proportion that are killed by hounds literally pales into insignificance alongside those that are run over or smeared all over the front of an HGV.

There are countries all over the world with far crueller sports and games that subject animals to a lot more suffering than 5 seconds with a pack of hounds.

Revol68 Your usual argument about the class war doesn't stand up here I'm afraid m8, your average working man has a long history of cruel blood sports, purely as a means to winning bets and wagers, cock-fighting, badgers, dogs, - anything goes

Of course we could just set dogs free into the wild like they used to be, then they could rip foxes apart as often and as slowly as they liked, but we would all be happy to let that happen because thats just nature at work isn't it ?

[lynni]

The fox may not be running, but it definitely isn't going to be sitting still. Marksmen may be able to shoot 3 bullets into the same hole from 25 yards, but that's a static target in plain visibility. The marksman will probably be in the prone (lying down position) and will have had time to prepare his shot. If a marksman went out hunting he wouldn't have nearly the same amount of creature comforts. The target is likley to be moving and in order to keep up, the marksman would have to run and take shots whilst standing up.

As to hunt horses being used for racing then you obviously haven't researched the issue in hand. Racing horses are very expensive and have been bred purely to race. You wouldn't put David Beckham in a cricket team would you? To be honest, I'm not convinced that having to put the horses down is a valid arguement for the pro-hunt, as I'm sure that horses used in the hunt aren't purely kept for hunting (someone may be able to correct me if I'm wrong). The key issue in this area is the number of hounds that would have to be put down. They cannot be domesticated as they are too aggressive. They cannot be trained because they have already been trained - to be aggressive.

Also horses that hunt are not throughbreds which race horses are, a hunt horse may be able to run distance... but not the speed of a race, if you have ever seen a hunt horse its stockier, bulkier there arent very many throughbreds. And this about shooting, which Angus has already mentioned is correct, and its what ive been trying to say all along but people dont seem to either wanna hear what ive got to say or just dont believe me

[lynni]

lets see if working class kids went around setting dogs on stray cats they'd be labelled as violent yobs but when a bunch of rich inbred idiots in red jackets do the same it is a tradition.

Lynni ur assertion that fox hunting is not a sport is ridiculous and not even put forward by its defenders likewise it the argument that shooting them is crueler is ridiculous and u have yet to provide evidence to back up this ridiculous claim.

oh yeah a good sport is to go out the night before a hunt and put piano wire between two trees on a spot the hunt will pass thru.. keeps down the vermin population.. he he he

What as this got to do with classs? u dont seem to have much of a point to make in your arguments revol68.... have u ever seen a hunt? or are u just repeating what others have said and the rubbish that you have heard in the media? I might not think its a sport, but others may do... so ok its a sport, but my personal opinion is that its a job to do, to keep foxes under control, i feel that now and i did back then when i was going out with the hunt..... something tells me that you dont really know anything different to the rest of the ignorant people in this thread and your just venting your anger and hatred towards 'them upper class t**** that wear red coats' if thats the case, i suggest u shut up and stop posting. Find some facts to suppport your evidence, because they dont seem anymore hardcore then mine according to u and the others (the fact ive seen a hunt doesnt seem to make any difference to u all tho does it?)

[lynni]

"The supporters of this sport rubbish the idea that the activity is cruel, saying one nip to the back of the fox's neck will kill it immediately, and that there is no evidence to suggest that foxes suffer the same effects of fear that humans do."

that is your evidence? sorry but that is very flimsy, 1 nip to the neck? you have seen it did you see the box killed with one quick bite or in minutes as you said earlier?

"Hounds do not kill foxes instantly with a 'nip to the back of the neck'. Canids do not kill in this way but rather tend to bring down their prey by a series of bites and tears to their quarry. The League has obtained post-mortem evidence from veterinary surgeons to support that this is how foxes recovered by League monitors have died."

sounds more substancial to me.

That was the only website i could fine, i was on my way to bed... i'll find some more today. wether its nips or instant kill, it isnt gonna be a death of hours rolling into days is it? that fox will die instantly and is that all foxes or just a few?