Because religions of today still have the same behaviour as the Church of then in regard to perceived threats against their beliefs. Instead of honest debate, they choose ridicule, personal attacks, ignorance, oppression, and violence. In the west they don't get away with it as the once did, but that element is still there, and it's very visible in the middle east and the east.
Originally Posted by Agent
Like I said, replace 'belief' with 'power'.
Religion is used to manipulate people in droves - challenge that and you challenge their power, hence the vehement backlash on "religious" grounds which is nothing more than a facade for the select few to maintain their stranglehold.
There are genuinely religious people but the ones giving it a bad name are anything but.
I don't agree, I think you're confusing human nature with religion. And again, how many of those terms also fit the discussions we have on Hexus?
Religion exists for the benefit of the clergy, go ask the Archbishop of Canterbury, if you can figure out which palace he's sleeping in tonight, while some of the worlds most devout Christians die in their thousands of poverty starvation and a litany of things the church could have massively reduced just with just words, in their shanty towns with the shiny new church just down the road. It's not about power or religion, religion is a means to power for these people.
Faith and aspiring to lead a good life, in almost all cases is a positive thing, whether you choose to have it in/take it from supernatural father figures, spaghetti monsters, yourself, humanity or almost anything else. Religion is the high-jacking of faith for the personal gain of a few self appointed dictators with terrible consequences. If just one of the major religions had spent their money on schools, hospitals or even just wells, rather than palaces, temples, wars and paid more than lip service to the sanctity of life and the golden rule, the world would be unrecognisable. The faithful might and often do, but religion never will beyond doing just enough to rub it in the faces of those that question them, when the truth is they have the power and money to change this world more than any other group or organisation on the planet.
Unfortunately religion is so embedded among the faithful, that they have convinced them that any attack on this corrupt and rotten system is an attack on their faith. When frankly if you truly believe you will be judged for your actions on Earth when you leave, you would want to run from these organisations as fast as you can. One of the few reasons I hope I'm wrong about this whole atheism lark is to see Jesus' reaction to the Vatican city. Think there would be more than a few overturned tables
i like you roachcoach, you need an avatar sharpish
Vodka
roachcoach (29-03-2011)
I can never seem to pick a good one
I've scanned this thread, and didn't find this mentioned, so I thought I'd add...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#Islam
... which is an exception to the above.
As long as certain countries enshrine this in their law and their birth rate is greater than their death rate then Islam will continue to grow. The 'bunch of people' can be incredibly small if they have total control of the country.
I'm not fat and I'm not 40
I don't think a way of thinking that there is something grander to life then what we can see or prove won't go away any time soon. Atheism is one of the fastest growing movements but it's still going to be hindered by private religious education and that sort of single minded programming can't be undone easily.
The second greatest helper of religious thinking is people who think they can talk to god and how they can affect the desperate and the hopeless. It's a breeding ground for mass hysteria, if only temporary but the problem lies in the fact that most people are creatures of habit and once they grab hold of an explanation and they can convince themselves that it helps them they will hold onto to it for dear life.
Religion was our first try at explaining things that didn't make sense and it's engraved into the history of humanity. I think it's important to study it even if it's just to learn from it, if that makes sense.
It does make sense.
I have a great deal of respect for Richard Dawkins, but there is one area where I think his ideas are weak. When challenged that "religion" must be "good" for human society, or else it would have died out though a process of "selection". Rather than just accept this and try to explain it, he seems to deny it. This seems odd to me. After all, religions are common to ALL human cultures and they have survived for a very long time. To suggest they produce no benefit seems odd to me.
There are many "religious" like activities that humans take part in. One obvious one is the supporting of sports teams.
One area where certain religious groups constantly amuse me is with their claim that atheists are amoral. This particularly ironic considering the child abuse scandals of the Catholic Church (and they aren't the only religion with this problem).
Perhaps if Humanism is considered a religion, then religion will suvive
Are You A Humanist.
That's an interesting point actually. Looking at religion from an evolutionary standpoint. You could certainly argue that religion is in decline, especially if you look at in a time scale of the last few thousand years. We all know the word most likely to follow "Holy" nowadays is no longer "Bible".
You can also argue that is still a very strong, and there must be some benefits allowing it to maintain this strength. I would say that to the clergy there are certainly massive benefits almost without fail, and of course they have a vested interest in maintaining those benefits, because without religion they would literally be out of a job. Still again there is decline here the Pope for example is a still a very powerful man, but less so than 500-1000years ago.
As for actual benefit for the whole congregation of a religion or the human race as a whole I think you could debate for a very long time not come to a definite answer, but there is a great deal of perceived benefit, particularly among the faithful. Whether not the benefit is actually tangible in this world, or the greatest benefit you could get from the same expense; for example what if we'd spent the money and effort we used to venerate Gods and build churches, on schools, science and hospitals instead? Still, this perception which is deeply ingrained in every faith aids Religion's survival on an evolutionary time scale.
Finally as you touched on there's a powerful biological desire in humans to be part of a social group. We are social animals. Religion for a very long time was the de facto social group and was open is open to anyone who will swear service to it's invisible King. Now however we have many more social groups, so many it's rare for people for people to only be a member of one to exclusion of all others, only the most fundamentalist sects of most modern religions operate in this way. For example the rise of nationalism and new attitudes to family over the last few hundred years means even the most ardent believers now identify very strongly with at least 3 social groups and importantly hold them in equal regard. Family, Country and Faith. Most would not service one of those groups at the detriment of another nowadays, where as many would of rebelled against a king or sent a son to fight a crusade a thousand years ago at the behest of the pope for example. This new dichotomy of multiple social groups combined with advancing communications and travel technology now gives us access to many social groups and people are now becoming more interested in groups with benefits in this life rather than the next. The more groups, the less of the pie for religion and I believe it needs a certain amount of prominence within the lives of individuals to maintain itself as a power within the greater community, the lack of which in the western world in recent history is why Christianity in many places, such as Britain is an empty shell, still clinging to the vestiges and veneration of it's glory days, but ultimately come Sunday the churches are emptier than they've ever been. I think as these social and technological paradigms spread, and they are spreading, similar fates await other religions.
I don't think religion will ever totally disappear, but it will never wield the power it used to again, no matter how hard it tries.
I like Richard Dawkins' theory of "memes" - the idea-equivalent of genes.
A good meme/idea (eg. a loving god or eternal life) makes people feel better, so is likely to spread and be passed on to later generations (eventually having a life of its own, independent of those who believe it). It may also "evolve" to suit its environment/believers.
Whereas the thought that we are just a random collection of molecules that will get eaten by worms has no self-affirming/spiritual benefit, so is less likely to "survive".
So it is not the truth or morality of the meme, but its ability to make the believer feel worthy, special, content or purposeful. Which could easily apply to religion IMHO.
As for the extinction of religion, an important factor is :
In 'peacetime', religious followers tend to favour their own.
During wars (often between different religions) non-believers get involved and killed.
I can only see religion becoming extinct when the zealots take the whole of humanity with them.
I think people will always have their weird beliefs whether they stand up to scrutiny or not. Its just the nature of humans to believe in something greater. Its the curse of having an imagination.
plus I think like most things it goes round in cycles; religion will be unpopular, then popular...and so on. It certainly will never be extinct because its something that can never be disproved or proved. Its a huge comfort to some and they just need it. I dont but can see some do.
One can never stop saying Thank You
no
Religion is a big social hammer.
Folks have replaced it with similar rubbish
I dont think there is any such thing as spirituality
I believe we all carry the heavy weight of self-awareness/sentience and many emotions
And we take refuge in larger social/tribal groups to reassure us
To be at sea and see BIG waves reminds us of forces greater than ourselves
Or the poor bloody infantryman in the foxhole
Underneath all our intellect is an emotional animal that knows fear
Me?
I read this in a wiki
And went along for a yearMysticism
Quakerism differs from other mystical religions in at least two important ways. For one, Quaker mysticism is primarily group-oriented rather than focused on the individual. The Friends' traditional meeting for worship may be considered an expression of that group mysticism, where all the members of the meeting listen together for the Spirit of God, speaking when that Spirit moves them.
Additionally, Quaker mysticism as it has been expressed after the late 19th century includes a strong emphasis on its outwardly directed witness. Rather than seeking withdrawal from the world, the Quaker mystic translates his or her mysticism into action. They believe this action leads to greater spiritual understanding — both by individuals and by the Meeting as a whole. This view of mysticism includes social and political activities.
Quakerism is the idea that there is that of God within everyone, guiding them through their lives. You are the sum of what you do and what you say, worship is just sitting in silence with a hundred other people for an hour a week. What you do with the rest of the week is what matters.
The bible , creeds and mysticism are not big issues.
I was hurting bad at the time , now I work for 3 charities. I would go back
COCO
Hello,
It is not religion that is responsible for any trouble it is the game of few manipulators who are trying to puppet the religion and govern people. Religion is so pure and always support peace and love. It is the intervention of wrong people that now people are drifting away from religion and it is really sad.
Regards,
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